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Hi Hendrik,

I updated my OP with additional details in between our posts. Our approaches have diverged. The new information I have added strengthens in my view the reading that I have taken in that the Vth Dynasty Pharoahs are unimportant to the story line other than as possible diversion. The new information I’ve added does not confirm the year but does appear to encode some detail of the solar house. Unfortunately, the solar house is less than clear. Then we run into the problems of precession. I’ve included the details below of the connection of Osiris to the sun which are now included in the OP.

Regards,
BC

Nederhof, in his translation includes a footnote that to be historically accurate, Userref should be Userkaf and Keku should be Neferirkare. It is assumed that Sahure is correct as Sahure is the name of a Vth dynasty Pharoah. However, let's examine the evidence in Isis’ utterances that may indicate otherwise. Taking the first child, Isis utters 'May you not be powerful in her womb, in this name of yours of Userref!’ User is a name for Osiris as established above in the discussion on Reusre. Osiris is also connected to the concept of power and of re-birth. As such, I suggest that Userref is a re-birthing of Osiris.
Supporting this notion, Budge in discussing the Tuat on p179 “As the sun passed though the Tuat large numbers of souls made their way into his boat, and although it was only the dead sun that was their guide and protector, and his passage was through the realms of the dead which were under the sovereignty of Osiris, the god of the dead, they were brought forth at length to renewed life and light as soon as the boat passed out from the eastern end of the Tuat into the day.”. Budge further expands upon this by discussing the Tuat [pp 259-260] from the perspective of the cult of Osiris and identifies that there “lies a mummified form, representing Osiris, and called Sem-Ȧf, i.e., the “Image (or Form) of “Ȧf”” Further “As Ȧf, the dead body of Ra, passes into our world, his new life begins, and for men and women the night passes away, and a new day is born.” I argue therefore that Userref is in fact Osiris in the form of Ȧf and represents the rising sun in the morning.
Returning to the Westcar story, Isis utters 'May you not stay dark in her womb, in this name of yours of Keku!’ for the third child. Keku is the Egyptian god of darkness, which aligns to Isis invocation. According to Budge, “Kekui represents that period of the night which immediately precedes the day”. Budge further notes that Kekui was at one point considered an Elephantine god identified with Khnemu which came about due to considering Kekui a personification of the Nile god Hapi. Budge also informs us that at Kom Ombo, Sebek (a crocodile god) was a personification of Kekui.
The second child’s name of Sahure is considered to mean “He who is close to Re” with respect to the Pharoah Sahure. This combination of the third child Keku being the period of the night which immediately precedes the day, 2nd child Sahure being close to Re lends support to the notion that the first and therefore eldest child of Ruddjedet Userref is a form of Osiris-Ȧf and therefore represents the rising sun.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 4076 engbren 25-Jul-19 13:03
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 308 cladking 25-Jul-19 14:04
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 214 engbren 28-Jul-19 08:05
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 196 engbren 26-Jul-19 15:04
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 179 engbren 01-Aug-19 13:52
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 172 engbren 02-Aug-19 06:37
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 206 engbren 28-Jul-19 12:28
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 219 GramPong 02-Aug-19 14:33
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 196 engbren 03-Aug-19 05:33
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 176 GramPong 03-Aug-19 13:41
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 167 engbren 04-Aug-19 04:41
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 183 GramPong 04-Aug-19 12:30
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 180 engbren 04-Aug-19 23:01
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 164 GramPong 05-Aug-19 07:49
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 206 engbren 05-Aug-19 10:15
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 184 engbren 07-Aug-19 13:16
Unlocking the punch-line 233 hendrik dirker 10-Aug-19 08:59
Re: Unlocking the punch-line 207 engbren 10-Aug-19 09:35
Re: Unlocking the punch-line 153 engbren 11-Aug-19 23:00
Re: Unlocking the punch-line 179 hendrik dirker 12-Aug-19 14:23
Re: Unlocking the punch-line 157 engbren 12-Aug-19 22:40
The plot & motive 176 hendrik dirker 13-Aug-19 10:56
Re: The plot & motive 156 engbren 13-Aug-19 12:10
Re: The plot & motive 183 hendrik dirker 13-Aug-19 14:04
Re: The plot & motive 157 engbren 13-Aug-19 23:04
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 160 engbren 12-Aug-19 13:17
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 165 engbren 15-Aug-19 12:20
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 170 engbren 19-Aug-19 11:50
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 155 engbren 22-Aug-19 09:18
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 169 Spiros 23-Aug-19 14:56
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 148 engbren 23-Aug-19 23:41
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 156 Spiros 24-Aug-19 06:16
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 166 engbren 24-Aug-19 10:52
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 158 Spiros 26-Aug-19 09:28
Egyptian seasons in the Phaistos disk 158 Spiros 26-Aug-19 09:55
Is Sopdet Involved? 127 engbren 13-Sep-19 11:45
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 129 Spiros 13-Sep-19 13:47
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 142 engbren 13-Sep-19 23:54
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 124 Spiros 15-Sep-19 06:54
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 124 engbren 16-Sep-19 12:16
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 107 Glass Jigsaw 28-Sep-19 17:54
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 128 engbren 29-Sep-19 09:08
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 177 engbren 27-Aug-19 08:07
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 154 Spiros 29-Aug-19 05:56
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 156 engbren 29-Aug-19 08:46
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 130 Spiros 07-Sep-19 04:07
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 128 engbren 08-Sep-19 02:32
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 109 Spiros 08-Sep-19 14:18
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 144 engbren 28-Aug-19 13:57
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 154 engbren 30-Aug-19 13:06
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 143 engbren 31-Aug-19 12:35
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 170 Spiros 31-Aug-19 19:21
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 129 engbren 04-Sep-19 13:49
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 119 Spiros 07-Sep-19 04:36
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 127 engbren 07-Sep-19 11:35
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 120 Spiros 08-Sep-19 14:50
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 102 engbren 27-Oct-19 12:21
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 103 Spiros 29-Oct-19 13:20
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 108 engbren 29-Oct-19 19:21
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 92 Spiros 30-Oct-19 18:22
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 86 engbren 30-Oct-19 19:29
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 102 Spiros 30-Oct-19 19:59
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 104 Glass Jigsaw 30-Oct-19 13:00
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 101 Spiros 31-Oct-19 15:19
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 97 Glass Jigsaw 31-Oct-19 16:16
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 127 drew 05-Sep-19 04:06
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 128 Spiros 05-Sep-19 06:31
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 137 engbren 05-Sep-19 09:26
Re: 1/14 of Osiris 128 drew 06-Sep-19 00:11
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 118 Spiros 07-Sep-19 05:03
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 119 engbren 06-Sep-19 00:44
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 128 drew 06-Sep-19 01:47
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 125 engbren 06-Sep-19 07:45
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 125 drew 06-Sep-19 08:14
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 125 engbren 06-Sep-19 08:39
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 138 engbren 06-Sep-19 09:02
The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 163 engbren 09-Sep-19 12:21
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 141 Spiros 09-Sep-19 15:40
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 152 Glass Jigsaw 09-Sep-19 20:13
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 145 engbren 10-Sep-19 05:52
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 126 Glass Jigsaw 10-Sep-19 10:54
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 121 engbren 11-Sep-19 13:14
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 143 Glass Jigsaw 11-Sep-19 14:37
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 130 drew 13-Sep-19 04:04
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 129 engbren 13-Sep-19 09:24
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 131 drew 13-Sep-19 10:46
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 123 Glass Jigsaw 13-Sep-19 11:21
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 121 drew 13-Sep-19 11:52
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 126 Glass Jigsaw 13-Sep-19 12:09
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 119 engbren 22-Sep-19 12:32
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 115 cladking 22-Sep-19 13:15
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 152 Glass Jigsaw 22-Sep-19 14:02
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 122 engbren 23-Sep-19 00:42
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 130 Spiros 23-Sep-19 02:54
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 117 Glass Jigsaw 23-Sep-19 10:43
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 104 Spiros 23-Sep-19 13:20
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 117 Glass Jigsaw 23-Sep-19 13:58
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 100 Spiros 23-Sep-19 17:30
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 120 Glass Jigsaw 23-Sep-19 23:51
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 102 Spiros 24-Sep-19 17:41
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 113 Glass Jigsaw 24-Sep-19 22:26
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 111 Spiros 25-Sep-19 13:39
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 125 Glass Jigsaw 25-Sep-19 15:15
The Age of Pisces 189 hendrik dirker 28-Sep-19 08:36
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 129 drew 25-Sep-19 00:49
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 121 Glass Jigsaw 25-Sep-19 11:34
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 110 Glass Jigsaw 25-Sep-19 12:29
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 104 engbren 22-Oct-19 11:07
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 115 Glass Jigsaw 22-Oct-19 14:18
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 98 engbren 25-Oct-19 11:06
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 96 drew 23-Oct-19 23:51
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 94 Glass Jigsaw 24-Oct-19 00:20
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 106 engbren 25-Oct-19 05:57
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 91 engbren 28-Oct-19 20:48
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 93 Glass Jigsaw 28-Oct-19 23:23
Astrological signs with human and creature idioms.... 95 Itatw70s 02-Nov-19 00:15
Re: Astrological signs with human and creature idioms.... 111 Glass Jigsaw 02-Nov-19 01:35
Re: Astrological signs with human and creature idioms.... 100 Itatw70s 02-Nov-19 13:45
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 158 Glass Jigsaw 07-Sep-19 12:03
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 176 cladking 07-Sep-19 14:07
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 88 Itatw70s 02-Nov-19 14:20
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 100 Glass Jigsaw 02-Nov-19 14:56
Khnum Khufu 142 engbren 08-Sep-19 13:11
Re: Khnum Khufu 134 Spiros 08-Sep-19 14:46
Trimming away unnecessary observations... 163 drew 09-Sep-19 00:30
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 150 drew 11-Sep-19 03:31
The moon and number 41 157 engbren 11-Sep-19 13:19
Re: The moon and number 41 113 thinkitover 23-Oct-19 05:48
Re: The moon and number 41 97 Glass Jigsaw 23-Oct-19 16:18
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 100 engbren 24-Oct-19 09:51
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 102 Glass Jigsaw 24-Oct-19 11:32
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 119 engbren 25-Oct-19 03:27
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 116 gulsbo 25-Oct-19 19:43
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 117 engbren 29-Oct-19 08:55
Some Random Ideas... 114 thinkitover 01-Nov-19 00:19
Re: Some Random Ideas... 87 engbren 03-Nov-19 21:47
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 111 engbren 04-Nov-19 12:26
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 101 engbren 16-Nov-19 12:02
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 74 Glass Jigsaw 27-Nov-19 00:59
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 82 Sirfiroth 27-Nov-19 04:47
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 87 magisterchessmutt 27-Nov-19 05:45
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 78 Sirfiroth 27-Nov-19 17:34
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 69 magisterchessmutt 28-Nov-19 00:38
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 73 Sirfiroth 28-Nov-19 01:29
Deleted n/t 72 cladking 27-Nov-19 12:33
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 90 engbren 02-Dec-19 12:09
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 78 Thanos5150 06-Dec-19 15:52
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 65 engbren 07-Dec-19 09:22
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 62 Spiros 07-Dec-19 21:54
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 62 engbren 12-Dec-19 11:36
Diameter of Alhena vs Coffer volume sphere theory 53 engbren 17-Dec-19 09:51
Re: Diameter of Alhena vs Coffer volume sphere theory 44 engbren 19-Dec-19 20:23
Re: Diameter of Alhena vs Coffer volume sphere theory 44 Glass Jigsaw 20-Dec-19 03:14
Re: Diameter of Alhena vs Coffer volume sphere theory 47 Spiros 23-Dec-19 22:27
Re: Diameter of Alhena vs Coffer volume sphere theory 28 engbren 29-Dec-19 04:58
Re: Diameter of Alhena vs Coffer volume sphere theory 17 engbren 08-Jan-20 20:01
In the Northern Skies 33 engbren 30-Dec-19 02:26
Re: In the Northern Skies 33 engbren 30-Dec-19 10:39
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 28 engbren 09-Jan-20 12:46
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 39 engbren 10-Jan-20 13:30
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 25 Spiros 12-Jan-20 19:32
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 39 Thanos5150 13-Jan-20 00:03
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 17 Spiros 15-Jan-20 13:32
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 26 engbren 15-Jan-20 11:08
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 30 Spiros 15-Jan-20 19:16
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 28 engbren 17-Jan-20 09:34
On the identity of the Children 31 engbren 19-Jan-20 08:15
Re: On the identity of the Children 17 Glass Jigsaw 19-Jan-20 20:21
Speculation on the offerings 19 engbren 21-Jan-20 12:26
Re: Speculation on the offerings 16 Glass Jigsaw 21-Jan-20 13:04
Not enough here to connect a date! Massive Speculation 24 Sirhope 22-Jan-20 02:14


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