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Hi Hendrik,

I updated my OP with additional details in between our posts. Our approaches have diverged. The new information I have added strengthens in my view the reading that I have taken in that the Vth Dynasty Pharoahs are unimportant to the story line other than as possible diversion. The new information I’ve added does not confirm the year but does appear to encode some detail of the solar house. Unfortunately, the solar house is less than clear. Then we run into the problems of precession. I’ve included the details below of the connection of Osiris to the sun which are now included in the OP.

Regards,
BC

Nederhof, in his translation includes a footnote that to be historically accurate, Userref should be Userkaf and Keku should be Neferirkare. It is assumed that Sahure is correct as Sahure is the name of a Vth dynasty Pharoah. However, let's examine the evidence in Isis’ utterances that may indicate otherwise. Taking the first child, Isis utters 'May you not be powerful in her womb, in this name of yours of Userref!’ User is a name for Osiris as established above in the discussion on Reusre. Osiris is also connected to the concept of power and of re-birth. As such, I suggest that Userref is a re-birthing of Osiris.
Supporting this notion, Budge in discussing the Tuat on p179 “As the sun passed though the Tuat large numbers of souls made their way into his boat, and although it was only the dead sun that was their guide and protector, and his passage was through the realms of the dead which were under the sovereignty of Osiris, the god of the dead, they were brought forth at length to renewed life and light as soon as the boat passed out from the eastern end of the Tuat into the day.”. Budge further expands upon this by discussing the Tuat [pp 259-260] from the perspective of the cult of Osiris and identifies that there “lies a mummified form, representing Osiris, and called Sem-Ȧf, i.e., the “Image (or Form) of “Ȧf”” Further “As Ȧf, the dead body of Ra, passes into our world, his new life begins, and for men and women the night passes away, and a new day is born.” I argue therefore that Userref is in fact Osiris in the form of Ȧf and represents the rising sun in the morning.
Returning to the Westcar story, Isis utters 'May you not stay dark in her womb, in this name of yours of Keku!’ for the third child. Keku is the Egyptian god of darkness, which aligns to Isis invocation. According to Budge, “Kekui represents that period of the night which immediately precedes the day”. Budge further notes that Kekui was at one point considered an Elephantine god identified with Khnemu which came about due to considering Kekui a personification of the Nile god Hapi. Budge also informs us that at Kom Ombo, Sebek (a crocodile god) was a personification of Kekui.
The second child’s name of Sahure is considered to mean “He who is close to Re” with respect to the Pharoah Sahure. This combination of the third child Keku being the period of the night which immediately precedes the day, 2nd child Sahure being close to Re lends support to the notion that the first and therefore eldest child of Ruddjedet Userref is a form of Osiris-Ȧf and therefore represents the rising sun.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 3488 engbren 25-Jul-19 13:03
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 253 cladking 25-Jul-19 14:04
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 165 engbren 28-Jul-19 08:05
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 155 engbren 26-Jul-19 15:04
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 133 engbren 01-Aug-19 13:52
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 128 engbren 02-Aug-19 06:37
Re: Unlocking the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 154 engbren 28-Jul-19 12:28
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 169 GramPong 02-Aug-19 14:33
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 152 engbren 03-Aug-19 05:33
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 132 GramPong 03-Aug-19 13:41
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 121 engbren 04-Aug-19 04:41
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 134 GramPong 04-Aug-19 12:30
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 128 engbren 04-Aug-19 23:01
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 116 GramPong 05-Aug-19 07:49
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 161 engbren 05-Aug-19 10:15
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 134 engbren 07-Aug-19 13:16
Unlocking the punch-line 173 hendrik dirker 10-Aug-19 08:59
Re: Unlocking the punch-line 161 engbren 10-Aug-19 09:35
Re: Unlocking the punch-line 108 engbren 11-Aug-19 23:00
Re: Unlocking the punch-line 130 hendrik dirker 12-Aug-19 14:23
Re: Unlocking the punch-line 110 engbren 12-Aug-19 22:40
The plot & motive 120 hendrik dirker 13-Aug-19 10:56
Re: The plot & motive 112 engbren 13-Aug-19 12:10
Re: The plot & motive 128 hendrik dirker 13-Aug-19 14:04
Re: The plot & motive 109 engbren 13-Aug-19 23:04
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus story of the Wonder of Djadjaemankh 110 engbren 12-Aug-19 13:17
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 116 engbren 15-Aug-19 12:20
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 114 engbren 19-Aug-19 11:50
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 111 engbren 22-Aug-19 09:18
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 110 Spiros 23-Aug-19 14:56
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 100 engbren 23-Aug-19 23:41
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 108 Spiros 24-Aug-19 06:16
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 119 engbren 24-Aug-19 10:52
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 108 Spiros 26-Aug-19 09:28
Egyptian seasons in the Phaistos disk 111 Spiros 26-Aug-19 09:55
Is Sopdet Involved? 80 engbren 13-Sep-19 11:45
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 90 Spiros 13-Sep-19 13:47
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 92 engbren 13-Sep-19 23:54
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 89 Spiros 15-Sep-19 06:54
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 81 engbren 16-Sep-19 12:16
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 66 Glass Jigsaw 28-Sep-19 17:54
Re: Is Sopdet Involved? 83 engbren 29-Sep-19 09:08
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 129 engbren 27-Aug-19 08:07
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 105 Spiros 29-Aug-19 05:56
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 112 engbren 29-Aug-19 08:46
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 79 Spiros 07-Sep-19 04:07
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 84 engbren 08-Sep-19 02:32
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 72 Spiros 08-Sep-19 14:18
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 95 engbren 28-Aug-19 13:57
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 104 engbren 30-Aug-19 13:06
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 95 engbren 31-Aug-19 12:35
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 118 Spiros 31-Aug-19 19:21
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 82 engbren 04-Sep-19 13:49
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 70 Spiros 07-Sep-19 04:36
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 81 engbren 07-Sep-19 11:35
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 84 Spiros 08-Sep-19 14:50
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 51 engbren 27-Oct-19 12:21
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 54 Spiros 29-Oct-19 13:20
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 50 engbren 29-Oct-19 19:21
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 44 Spiros 30-Oct-19 18:22
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 39 engbren 30-Oct-19 19:29
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 53 Spiros 30-Oct-19 19:59
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 53 Glass Jigsaw 30-Oct-19 13:00
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 50 Spiros 31-Oct-19 15:19
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 49 Glass Jigsaw 31-Oct-19 16:16
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 82 drew 05-Sep-19 04:06
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 83 Spiros 05-Sep-19 06:31
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 90 engbren 05-Sep-19 09:26
Re: 1/14 of Osiris 79 drew 06-Sep-19 00:11
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 82 Spiros 07-Sep-19 05:03
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 73 engbren 06-Sep-19 00:44
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 81 drew 06-Sep-19 01:47
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 79 engbren 06-Sep-19 07:45
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 79 drew 06-Sep-19 08:14
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 79 engbren 06-Sep-19 08:39
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 91 engbren 06-Sep-19 09:02
The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 110 engbren 09-Sep-19 12:21
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 89 Spiros 09-Sep-19 15:40
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 99 Glass Jigsaw 09-Sep-19 20:13
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 91 engbren 10-Sep-19 05:52
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 83 Glass Jigsaw 10-Sep-19 10:54
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 76 engbren 11-Sep-19 13:14
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 98 Glass Jigsaw 11-Sep-19 14:37
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 85 drew 13-Sep-19 04:04
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 80 engbren 13-Sep-19 09:24
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 82 drew 13-Sep-19 10:46
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 79 Glass Jigsaw 13-Sep-19 11:21
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 74 drew 13-Sep-19 11:52
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 83 Glass Jigsaw 13-Sep-19 12:09
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 74 engbren 22-Sep-19 12:32
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 74 cladking 22-Sep-19 13:15
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 100 Glass Jigsaw 22-Sep-19 14:02
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 74 engbren 23-Sep-19 00:42
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 91 Spiros 23-Sep-19 02:54
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 70 Glass Jigsaw 23-Sep-19 10:43
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 65 Spiros 23-Sep-19 13:20
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 67 Glass Jigsaw 23-Sep-19 13:58
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 67 Spiros 23-Sep-19 17:30
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 73 Glass Jigsaw 23-Sep-19 23:51
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 64 Spiros 24-Sep-19 17:41
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 67 Glass Jigsaw 24-Sep-19 22:26
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 76 Spiros 25-Sep-19 13:39
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 78 Glass Jigsaw 25-Sep-19 15:15
The Age of Pisces 107 hendrik dirker 28-Sep-19 08:36
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 84 drew 25-Sep-19 00:49
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 72 Glass Jigsaw 25-Sep-19 11:34
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 63 Glass Jigsaw 25-Sep-19 12:29
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 58 engbren 22-Oct-19 11:07
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 67 Glass Jigsaw 22-Oct-19 14:18
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 50 engbren 25-Oct-19 11:06
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 49 drew 23-Oct-19 23:51
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 51 Glass Jigsaw 24-Oct-19 00:20
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 57 engbren 25-Oct-19 05:57
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 45 engbren 28-Oct-19 20:48
Re: The Age of Pisces or Aquarius? 46 Glass Jigsaw 28-Oct-19 23:23
Astrological signs with human and creature idioms.... 48 Itatw70s 02-Nov-19 00:15
Re: Astrological signs with human and creature idioms.... 63 Glass Jigsaw 02-Nov-19 01:35
Re: Astrological signs with human and creature idioms.... 53 Itatw70s 02-Nov-19 13:45
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 112 Glass Jigsaw 07-Sep-19 12:03
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 128 cladking 07-Sep-19 14:07
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 40 Itatw70s 02-Nov-19 14:20
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 51 Glass Jigsaw 02-Nov-19 14:56
Khnum Khufu 94 engbren 08-Sep-19 13:11
Re: Khnum Khufu 99 Spiros 08-Sep-19 14:46
Trimming away unnecessary observations... 114 drew 09-Sep-19 00:30
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 110 drew 11-Sep-19 03:31
The moon and number 41 113 engbren 11-Sep-19 13:19
Re: The moon and number 41 64 thinkitover 23-Oct-19 05:48
Re: The moon and number 41 53 Glass Jigsaw 23-Oct-19 16:18
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 56 engbren 24-Oct-19 09:51
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 57 Glass Jigsaw 24-Oct-19 11:32
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 71 engbren 25-Oct-19 03:27
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 70 gulsbo 25-Oct-19 19:43
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 72 engbren 29-Oct-19 08:55
Some Random Ideas... 67 thinkitover 01-Nov-19 00:19
Re: Some Random Ideas... 45 engbren 03-Nov-19 21:47
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 64 engbren 04-Nov-19 12:26
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 64 engbren 16-Nov-19 12:02
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 39 Glass Jigsaw 27-Nov-19 00:59
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 48 Sirfiroth 27-Nov-19 04:47
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 43 magisterchessmutt 27-Nov-19 05:45
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 36 Sirfiroth 27-Nov-19 17:34
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 33 magisterchessmutt 28-Nov-19 00:38
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 39 Sirfiroth 28-Nov-19 01:29
Deleted n/t 39 cladking 27-Nov-19 12:33
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 52 engbren 02-Dec-19 12:09
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 40 Thanos5150 06-Dec-19 15:52
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 30 engbren 07-Dec-19 09:22
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 29 Spiros 07-Dec-19 21:54
Re: Unlocking the Westcar Papyrus with Egyptian Astronomy 17 engbren 12-Dec-19 11:36


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