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For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
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Poster Boy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi GramPong
>
> Not sure where you're coming from, or what's
> excited you of late, but I would say, Take a very
> deep breath when it comes to anything to do with
> Stichen.
> [www.sitchiniswrong.com]

Myself:

Quote

> It has been established that Sitchin could not
> actually read the texts that he claims to have
> translated.

No it has not. This says nothing about how well he could read them mind you, but all that has been "established" is that his translations, obviously, do not jibe with traditional interpretations of which Sitchin makes it abundantly clear are his alone. In the process, Sitchin has purportedly made several errors or taken undue poetic license with his translations in support of his overall claims. This may well be true, but keep in mind your parroted comments are derived almost exclusively from one Michael S Heiser who:
Quote

Mike has an active ministry to people whose worldview is molded by occult, paranormal, and esoteric beliefs. He observed that many who have adopted “alternative” worldviews were formerly traditional theists and Christians who left the faith when their questions on difficult passages and topics went unanswered, or when spiritual leaders failed to address experiences they had had. Mike seeks to fill these gaps as a Christian scholar and has become well known in these circles through writing, speaking, and numerous radio appearances.
Logos.

Can't imagine any bias there.

Interestingly, I have yet to find anywhere in Heiser's "debunking" of Sitchin's translations that he himself can read cuneiform, but rather relies on translations from the likes of the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary and ESL among others. For example, his treatment of seal VA243; he does not translate what it says himself, but rather relies on other sources to tell him what it says:
Quote

The seal is transliterated (the Sumero-Akkadian signs in English letters) and translated in the
principal publication of the Berlin Vorderasiatische Museum’s publication of its seal collection,
Vorderasiatische Rollsiegel (“West Asian Cylinder Seals”; 1940) by Mesopotamian scholar Anton
Moortgat on page 101. This book is in German, so I offer the German and an English translation:
Line 1 = dub-si-ga “Dubsiga” [a personal name of an apparently powerful personc]
Line 2 = ili-il-la-at “Ili-illat” [another personal name, this time of the seal’s owner]
Line 3 = ir3-su “dein Knecht” [German for “your servant”d]

So Sitchin is "wrong" because of translations made by one Anton Moortgat in 1940?

In which he had to follow up further still with someone else: "In an email correspondence with Dr. Rudi Mayr, whose dissertation was on cylinder seals, Dr. Mayr commented on the inscriptions and the seal...".

All Heiser has done is research known translations, which he even tells you himself anyone can do, to tell you Sitchin is wrong which was kind of the point of Sitchin retranslating them in that he thought scholars got it wrong in the first place.

Heiser says: "I get asked all the time, “How do you know Sitchin is wrong about aliens in Sumerian tablets?". Which he answers:"Short answer: Because I get my information from the actual ancient scribes. Here's one example among many that could be offered.".

So by "actual ancient scribes" what he really means is other scholars who have translated it for him.

Regardless of the validity of Sitchin's translations or his ideas, I am amazed at how gullible some are to gobble up whatever Heiser says as gospel without ever getting to know who he really is beyond his credentials, what he is actually saying, and where he gets his information from. I suppose it doesn't matter as long as he is saying from a position of "authority" what some desperately want to hear.

Quote

Yes, many Sumerian-Akkadian lexical texts and word lists have been found, spanning more than 3,000yrs, but you do understand, I presume, these all had to be translated by modern scholars in the first place in which many words have been found to have several meanings of which not all scholars agree. These "dictionaries" you are referring to is what has been compiled by modern scholars of these translations, spanning this 3,000yr period, into a searchable form. This is not to defend Sitchin, which I am kind of sick of having to say, but the whole point of his "retranslating", right or wrong, is that he did not agree with some of these translations.

It is hardly the case to think uncovering the true meanings of these ancient words is just as simple as "looking it up in the dictionary". If one looks at even an English dictionary from the 1800's there are many words that have meaning today that it did not then and vise versa. Regarding one of the more contentious translations of Sitchin's, the word "Nephilim", if we want to know what it means then all we need to do is look it up in a dictionary right? It tells us it means:"Nephilim: "giants," name of two peoples, one before the flood and one after the flood".

According to Sitchin, however:
“What then does the term Nefilim mean? Stemming from the Semitic root NFL (“to be cast down”), it means exactly what it says. It means those who were cast down upon the earth.”

And here is Heiser to tell you why Sitchin is wrong and that it can only mean "giants".

Well, I guess that's it then. Heiser and the dictionary agree.

But wait, here is Ronald S Hendel, Norma and Sam Dabby Professor of Hebrew Bible and Jewish Studies at the University of California, Berkeley, Dept. of Near Eastern Studies, explaining why Heiser is wrong: Michael Heiser's (Mis)interpretation of "Nephilim" as "Giants" not "fallen Ones".

But how can this be if all one needs to do is "look it up in the dictionary"?

And if you actually read it, Hendel notes that Victor P. Hamilton, Professor of Old Testament and Theology at Asbury University from 1971 until 2007, translates Nephilim as...wait for it...:"‘those who were made to fall; those who were cast down’".

Sound familiar?

Some quotes from Hendel regarding Heiser's translations:

What you have written here and in your post helps me understand how you have come to your conclusion, which I continue to consider is unsound.

So your reliance on the Aramaic “meaning” of Nephilin faces what I consider is an insurmountable problem, and I hope I have made this problem clearer to you.
[Lol]

If you wish to continue to make an argument that the Aramaic meaning of the term “Nephilin” is “giants” and that this meaning influenced the Hebrew, the onus is on you to provide the evidence. But there is no evidence – is there?

Ouch.

Of course I hope none who read this are stupid enough to suggest I am implying either Hendel or Hamilton endorse Sitchin's ancient astronaut hypothesis, but I note this to illustrate the simple point these matters are not as simple as some would have others believe.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 1084 GramPong 15-Jul-19 21:31
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 185 Merrell 16-Jul-19 07:15
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 142 GramPong 16-Jul-19 11:02
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 119 Merrell 16-Jul-19 14:10
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 88 GramPong 16-Jul-19 15:25
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 104 Martin Stower 16-Jul-19 21:08
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 99 GramPong 16-Jul-19 22:44
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 96 Poster Boy 16-Jul-19 23:24
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 75 GramPong 16-Jul-19 23:43
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 80 Thanos5150 17-Jul-19 15:46
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 75 GramPong 17-Jul-19 15:56
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 77 Corpuscles 17-Jul-19 23:32
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 71 GramPong 18-Jul-19 00:49
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 67 Corpuscles 18-Jul-19 02:54
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 63 GramPong 18-Jul-19 12:55
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 73 Corpuscles 18-Jul-19 16:47
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 65 GramPong 18-Jul-19 17:39
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 60 Susan Doris 19-Jul-19 05:06
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 76 Thanos5150 18-Jul-19 03:36
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 55 GramPong 18-Jul-19 13:15
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 77 Poster Boy 17-Jul-19 17:40
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 64 Thanos5150 18-Jul-19 03:14
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 65 Poster Boy 18-Jul-19 15:11
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 59 Thanos5150 19-Jul-19 15:36
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 64 Poster Boy 19-Jul-19 15:54
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 76 Thanos5150 20-Jul-19 01:23
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 58 Poster Boy 21-Jul-19 04:04
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 76 Martin Stower 17-Jul-19 07:48
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 64 GramPong 17-Jul-19 08:44
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 137 Martin Stower 16-Jul-19 08:51
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 96 GramPong 16-Jul-19 10:53
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 66 Barbelo 16-Jul-19 21:09
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 87 Martin Stower 16-Jul-19 21:30
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 65 GramPong 16-Jul-19 22:23
Immortality & Resurrection 73 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 00:17
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 64 GramPong 17-Jul-19 00:28
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 79 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 01:37
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 65 GramPong 17-Jul-19 02:13
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 64 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 03:37
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 61 GramPong 17-Jul-19 03:58
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 71 Martin Stower 17-Jul-19 07:44
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 61 GramPong 17-Jul-19 09:10
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 62 Merrell 17-Jul-19 07:52
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 60 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 11:33
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 70 Corpuscles 17-Jul-19 03:03
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 60 GramPong 17-Jul-19 03:21
Barnhardt Klaatu Exchange 72 Dr. Troglodyte 17-Jul-19 13:00
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 81 Merrell 17-Jul-19 07:56
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 75 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 11:35
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 94 Merrell 17-Jul-19 13:54
Stargate 85 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 22:23
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 82 Barbelo 18-Jul-19 02:34
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 73 GramPong 18-Jul-19 13:18
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 60 Barbelo 18-Jul-19 22:02
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 57 GramPong 18-Jul-19 22:15
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 77 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 00:45
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 76 Martin Stower 19-Jul-19 20:48
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 64 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 21:38
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 50 Martin Stower 20-Jul-19 22:35
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 59 Barbelo 21-Jul-19 00:49
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 61 Martin Stower 22-Jul-19 15:30
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 47 Barbelo 22-Jul-19 21:03
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 57 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 04:49
Re: Stargate 90 Merrell 18-Jul-19 08:05
Re: Stargate 71 Barbelo 18-Jul-19 22:10
Re: Stargate 67 Merrell 19-Jul-19 11:25
Re: Stargate 63 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 21:28
Re: Stargate 63 Merrell 19-Jul-19 21:52
Re: Stargate 95 Thanos5150 20-Jul-19 15:32
Re: Stargate 64 Merrell 20-Jul-19 15:45
Re: Stargate 50 Thanos5150 23-Jul-19 21:30
Re: Stargate 57 Aine 23-Jul-19 23:03
Re: Stargate 72 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 00:05
Re: Stargate 51 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 00:43
Re: Stargate 53 Aine 24-Jul-19 01:09
Re: Stargate 52 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 01:33
Re: Stargate 58 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 01:56
Re: Stargate 67 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 03:47
Re: Stargate 52 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 15:05
Re: Stargate 50 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 23:08
Re: Stargate 54 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 01:46
Mod Note > Duplicate Postings 42 Dr. Troglodyte 25-Jul-19 17:13
Re: Stargate 74 Merrell 21-Jul-19 12:34
Re: Stargate 56 Martin Stower 22-Jul-19 15:40
Re: Stargate 45 Thanos5150 23-Jul-19 21:56
Re: Stargate 63 jazzmumbles 22-Jul-19 01:04
Re: Stargate 62 Merrell 22-Jul-19 06:49
Re: Stargate 58 drrayeye 22-Jul-19 17:18
The EcuadorianToilet Float of the Gods 61 Merrell 22-Jul-19 19:47
debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 74 drrayeye 22-Jul-19 22:25
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 52 Merrell 24-Jul-19 12:43
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 61 Martin Stower 24-Jul-19 13:36
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 48 drrayeye 24-Jul-19 14:31
And..... 48 Barbelo 24-Jul-19 22:19
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 49 drrayeye 24-Jul-19 14:29
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 46 Merrell 25-Jul-19 06:43
Debunkatron 46 drrayeye 25-Jul-19 06:50
Re: Debunkatron 53 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 08:24
Re: Debunkatron 42 drrayeye 25-Jul-19 13:16
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 44 Aine 26-Jul-19 16:04
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 78 Aine 24-Jul-19 17:06
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 62 Merrell 25-Jul-19 06:41
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 61 Aine 25-Jul-19 10:41
Agreed 54 drrayeye 25-Jul-19 13:24
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 59 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 15:32
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 41 GramPong 25-Jul-19 16:30
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 44 Aine 26-Jul-19 16:02
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 53 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 07:28
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 50 Aine 25-Jul-19 10:39
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 58 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 11:27
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 50 Aine 25-Jul-19 13:21
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 63 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 15:13
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 57 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 16:28
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 80 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 18:49
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 59 Thanos5150 26-Jul-19 15:15
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 56 Martin Stower 26-Jul-19 19:16
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 53 Aine 26-Jul-19 16:18
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 44 Aine 26-Jul-19 15:50
Re: Stargate 64 Aine 23-Jul-19 22:25
Re: Stargate 54 Thanos5150 23-Jul-19 23:39
Re: Stargate 57 Aine 24-Jul-19 00:59
Re: Stargate 53 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 03:43
Re: Stargate 70 Aine 24-Jul-19 11:16
Re: Stargate 52 Poster Boy 24-Jul-19 23:18
Re: Stargate 57 Corpuscles 25-Jul-19 00:25
Re: Stargate 40 Poster Boy 25-Jul-19 03:04
Re: Stargate 46 Poster Boy 25-Jul-19 20:48
Re: Stargate 65 Corpuscles 25-Jul-19 22:32
Collateral damage 53 hendrik dirker 26-Jul-19 02:02
Re: Collateral damage 55 Corpuscles 26-Jul-19 03:36
Re: Stargate 56 R Avry Wilson 26-Jul-19 03:25
Re: mirage.. 41 Poster Boy 26-Jul-19 04:55
Re: mirage.. 49 R Avry Wilson 26-Jul-19 08:28
Re: Stargate 46 Poster Boy 26-Jul-19 05:07
Re: Stargate 61 Corpuscles 26-Jul-19 05:31
Re: Stargate 48 Poster Boy 26-Jul-19 14:09
Re: Stargate 50 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 01:59
Re: Stargate 48 Poster Boy 25-Jul-19 02:10
Re: Stargate 50 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 02:31
Re: Stargate 46 Poster Boy 25-Jul-19 02:54
Re: Stargate 56 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 03:26
Re: Stargate 59 Poster Boy 25-Jul-19 03:31
Re: Stargate 44 GramPong 25-Jul-19 11:57
Cloaking ? 43 Poster Boy 25-Jul-19 21:35
Re: Stargate 51 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 11:32
Re: Stargate 46 Poster Boy 26-Jul-19 04:58
Re: Stargate 49 Martin Stower 24-Jul-19 13:24
Re: Stargate 54 drrayeye 24-Jul-19 15:13
"The Book Of The Damned" - A Debunker's Dream? 51 Barbelo 24-Jul-19 01:48
Re: Stargate 60 GramPong 19-Jul-19 23:33
The Emerald Tablets 72 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 02:19
Re: The Emerald Tablets 61 GramPong 20-Jul-19 02:53
Re: The Emerald Tablets 67 Merrell 20-Jul-19 09:04
Re: The Emerald Tablets 55 GramPong 20-Jul-19 15:03
Re: The Emerald Tablets 53 cladking 20-Jul-19 22:12
Re: The Emerald Tablets 63 Merrell 20-Jul-19 12:39
Re: The Emerald Tablets 55 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 21:28
Re: The Emerald Tablets 56 Merrell 20-Jul-19 22:04
Re: The Emerald Tablets 57 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 22:34
Re: The Emerald Tablets 59 Martin Stower 20-Jul-19 22:41
Re: The Emerald Tablets 60 Barbelo 21-Jul-19 01:01
Re: The Emerald Tablets 46 Martin Stower 22-Jul-19 15:28
Re: The Emerald Tablets 48 Barbelo 22-Jul-19 21:27
Re: Stargate 56 GramPong 19-Jul-19 22:15
Re: Stargate 66 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 23:02
Re: Stargate 65 GramPong 20-Jul-19 02:01
Re: Stargate 68 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 02:21
Re: Stargate 81 Merrell 20-Jul-19 08:45
Re: Stargate 110 Martin Stower 18-Jul-19 22:26
Re: Stargate 96 Merrell 19-Jul-19 11:46
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 136 Martin Stower 17-Jul-19 21:34
Trey Smith 68 GramPong 24-Jul-19 19:56
Re: Trey Smith 64 Lee McGiffen 26-Jul-19 03:09
Re: Trey Smith 65 GramPong 26-Jul-19 10:44
Mod Warning > General > Topic Closed 103 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Jul-19 20:04


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