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For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
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Poster Boy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi GramPong
>
> Not sure where you're coming from, or what's
> excited you of late, but I would say, Take a very
> deep breath when it comes to anything to do with
> Stichen.
> [www.sitchiniswrong.com]

Myself:

Quote

> It has been established that Sitchin could not
> actually read the texts that he claims to have
> translated.

No it has not. This says nothing about how well he could read them mind you, but all that has been "established" is that his translations, obviously, do not jibe with traditional interpretations of which Sitchin makes it abundantly clear are his alone. In the process, Sitchin has purportedly made several errors or taken undue poetic license with his translations in support of his overall claims. This may well be true, but keep in mind your parroted comments are derived almost exclusively from one Michael S Heiser who:
Quote

Mike has an active ministry to people whose worldview is molded by occult, paranormal, and esoteric beliefs. He observed that many who have adopted “alternative” worldviews were formerly traditional theists and Christians who left the faith when their questions on difficult passages and topics went unanswered, or when spiritual leaders failed to address experiences they had had. Mike seeks to fill these gaps as a Christian scholar and has become well known in these circles through writing, speaking, and numerous radio appearances.
Logos.

Can't imagine any bias there.

Interestingly, I have yet to find anywhere in Heiser's "debunking" of Sitchin's translations that he himself can read cuneiform, but rather relies on translations from the likes of the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary and ESL among others. For example, his treatment of seal VA243; he does not translate what it says himself, but rather relies on other sources to tell him what it says:
Quote

The seal is transliterated (the Sumero-Akkadian signs in English letters) and translated in the
principal publication of the Berlin Vorderasiatische Museum’s publication of its seal collection,
Vorderasiatische Rollsiegel (“West Asian Cylinder Seals”; 1940) by Mesopotamian scholar Anton
Moortgat on page 101. This book is in German, so I offer the German and an English translation:
Line 1 = dub-si-ga “Dubsiga” [a personal name of an apparently powerful personc]
Line 2 = ili-il-la-at “Ili-illat” [another personal name, this time of the seal’s owner]
Line 3 = ir3-su “dein Knecht” [German for “your servant”d]

So Sitchin is "wrong" because of translations made by one Anton Moortgat in 1940?

In which he had to follow up further still with someone else: "In an email correspondence with Dr. Rudi Mayr, whose dissertation was on cylinder seals, Dr. Mayr commented on the inscriptions and the seal...".

All Heiser has done is research known translations, which he even tells you himself anyone can do, to tell you Sitchin is wrong which was kind of the point of Sitchin retranslating them in that he thought scholars got it wrong in the first place.

Heiser says: "I get asked all the time, “How do you know Sitchin is wrong about aliens in Sumerian tablets?". Which he answers:"Short answer: Because I get my information from the actual ancient scribes. Here's one example among many that could be offered.".

So by "actual ancient scribes" what he really means is other scholars who have translated it for him.

Regardless of the validity of Sitchin's translations or his ideas, I am amazed at how gullible some are to gobble up whatever Heiser says as gospel without ever getting to know who he really is beyond his credentials, what he is actually saying, and where he gets his information from. I suppose it doesn't matter as long as he is saying from a position of "authority" what some desperately want to hear.

Quote

Yes, many Sumerian-Akkadian lexical texts and word lists have been found, spanning more than 3,000yrs, but you do understand, I presume, these all had to be translated by modern scholars in the first place in which many words have been found to have several meanings of which not all scholars agree. These "dictionaries" you are referring to is what has been compiled by modern scholars of these translations, spanning this 3,000yr period, into a searchable form. This is not to defend Sitchin, which I am kind of sick of having to say, but the whole point of his "retranslating", right or wrong, is that he did not agree with some of these translations.

It is hardly the case to think uncovering the true meanings of these ancient words is just as simple as "looking it up in the dictionary". If one looks at even an English dictionary from the 1800's there are many words that have meaning today that it did not then and vise versa. Regarding one of the more contentious translations of Sitchin's, the word "Nephilim", if we want to know what it means then all we need to do is look it up in a dictionary right? It tells us it means:"Nephilim: "giants," name of two peoples, one before the flood and one after the flood".

According to Sitchin, however:
“What then does the term Nefilim mean? Stemming from the Semitic root NFL (“to be cast down”), it means exactly what it says. It means those who were cast down upon the earth.”

And here is Heiser to tell you why Sitchin is wrong and that it can only mean "giants".

Well, I guess that's it then. Heiser and the dictionary agree.

But wait, here is Ronald S Hendel, Norma and Sam Dabby Professor of Hebrew Bible and Jewish Studies at the University of California, Berkeley, Dept. of Near Eastern Studies, explaining why Heiser is wrong: Michael Heiser's (Mis)interpretation of "Nephilim" as "Giants" not "fallen Ones".

But how can this be if all one needs to do is "look it up in the dictionary"?

And if you actually read it, Hendel notes that Victor P. Hamilton, Professor of Old Testament and Theology at Asbury University from 1971 until 2007, translates Nephilim as...wait for it...:"‘those who were made to fall; those who were cast down’".

Sound familiar?

Some quotes from Hendel regarding Heiser's translations:

What you have written here and in your post helps me understand how you have come to your conclusion, which I continue to consider is unsound.

So your reliance on the Aramaic “meaning” of Nephilin faces what I consider is an insurmountable problem, and I hope I have made this problem clearer to you.
[Lol]

If you wish to continue to make an argument that the Aramaic meaning of the term “Nephilin” is “giants” and that this meaning influenced the Hebrew, the onus is on you to provide the evidence. But there is no evidence – is there?

Ouch.

Of course I hope none who read this are stupid enough to suggest I am implying either Hendel or Hamilton endorse Sitchin's ancient astronaut hypothesis, but I note this to illustrate the simple point these matters are not as simple as some would have others believe.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 1308 GramPong 15-Jul-19 21:31
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 249 Merrell 16-Jul-19 07:15
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 197 GramPong 16-Jul-19 11:02
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 175 Merrell 16-Jul-19 14:10
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 157 GramPong 16-Jul-19 15:25
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 160 Martin Stower 16-Jul-19 21:08
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 148 GramPong 16-Jul-19 22:44
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 151 Poster Boy 16-Jul-19 23:24
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 138 GramPong 16-Jul-19 23:43
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 129 Thanos5150 17-Jul-19 15:46
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 149 GramPong 17-Jul-19 15:56
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 138 Corpuscles 17-Jul-19 23:32
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 126 GramPong 18-Jul-19 00:49
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 140 Corpuscles 18-Jul-19 02:54
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 133 GramPong 18-Jul-19 12:55
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 121 Corpuscles 18-Jul-19 16:47
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 142 GramPong 18-Jul-19 17:39
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 114 Susan Doris 19-Jul-19 05:06
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 142 Thanos5150 18-Jul-19 03:36
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 113 GramPong 18-Jul-19 13:15
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 143 Poster Boy 17-Jul-19 17:40
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 118 Thanos5150 18-Jul-19 03:14
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 131 Poster Boy 18-Jul-19 15:11
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 129 Thanos5150 19-Jul-19 15:36
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 113 Poster Boy 19-Jul-19 15:54
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 139 Thanos5150 20-Jul-19 01:23
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 117 Poster Boy 21-Jul-19 04:04
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 148 Martin Stower 17-Jul-19 07:48
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 118 GramPong 17-Jul-19 08:44
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 210 Martin Stower 16-Jul-19 08:51
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 152 GramPong 16-Jul-19 10:53
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 111 Barbelo 16-Jul-19 21:09
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 142 Martin Stower 16-Jul-19 21:30
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 121 GramPong 16-Jul-19 22:23
Immortality & Resurrection 147 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 00:17
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 124 GramPong 17-Jul-19 00:28
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 144 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 01:37
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 110 GramPong 17-Jul-19 02:13
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 120 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 03:37
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 137 GramPong 17-Jul-19 03:58
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 143 Martin Stower 17-Jul-19 07:44
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 116 GramPong 17-Jul-19 09:10
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 119 Merrell 17-Jul-19 07:52
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 133 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 11:33
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 129 Corpuscles 17-Jul-19 03:03
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 111 GramPong 17-Jul-19 03:21
Barnhardt Klaatu Exchange 124 Dr. Troglodyte 17-Jul-19 13:00
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 150 Merrell 17-Jul-19 07:56
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 143 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 11:35
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 173 Merrell 17-Jul-19 13:54
Stargate 137 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 22:23
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 152 Barbelo 18-Jul-19 02:34
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 143 GramPong 18-Jul-19 13:18
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 149 Barbelo 18-Jul-19 22:02
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 107 GramPong 18-Jul-19 22:15
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 155 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 00:45
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 162 Martin Stower 19-Jul-19 20:48
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 120 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 21:38
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 126 Martin Stower 20-Jul-19 22:35
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 125 Barbelo 21-Jul-19 00:49
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 146 Martin Stower 22-Jul-19 15:30
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 104 Barbelo 22-Jul-19 21:03
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 135 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 04:49
Re: Stargate 152 Merrell 18-Jul-19 08:05
Re: Stargate 127 Barbelo 18-Jul-19 22:10
Re: Stargate 153 Merrell 19-Jul-19 11:25
Re: Stargate 143 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 21:28
Re: Stargate 119 Merrell 19-Jul-19 21:52
Re: Stargate 160 Thanos5150 20-Jul-19 15:32
Re: Stargate 124 Merrell 20-Jul-19 15:45
Re: Stargate 116 Thanos5150 23-Jul-19 21:30
Re: Stargate 111 Aine 23-Jul-19 23:03
Re: Stargate 129 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 00:05
Re: Stargate 122 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 00:43
Re: Stargate 98 Aine 24-Jul-19 01:09
Re: Stargate 111 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 01:33
Re: Stargate 113 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 01:56
Re: Stargate 124 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 03:47
Re: Stargate 107 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 15:05
Re: Stargate 103 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 23:08
Re: Stargate 111 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 01:46
Mod Note > Duplicate Postings 97 Dr. Troglodyte 25-Jul-19 17:13
Re: Stargate 128 Merrell 21-Jul-19 12:34
Re: Stargate 122 Martin Stower 22-Jul-19 15:40
Re: Stargate 109 Thanos5150 23-Jul-19 21:56
Re: Stargate 140 jazzmumbles 22-Jul-19 01:04
Re: Stargate 122 Merrell 22-Jul-19 06:49
Re: Stargate 110 drrayeye 22-Jul-19 17:18
The EcuadorianToilet Float of the Gods 105 Merrell 22-Jul-19 19:47
debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 126 drrayeye 22-Jul-19 22:25
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 121 Merrell 24-Jul-19 12:43
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 118 Martin Stower 24-Jul-19 13:36
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 106 drrayeye 24-Jul-19 14:31
And..... 103 Barbelo 24-Jul-19 22:19
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 96 drrayeye 24-Jul-19 14:29
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 102 Merrell 25-Jul-19 06:43
Debunkatron 101 drrayeye 25-Jul-19 06:50
Re: Debunkatron 109 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 08:24
Re: Debunkatron 117 drrayeye 25-Jul-19 13:16
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 114 Aine 26-Jul-19 16:04
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 144 Aine 24-Jul-19 17:06
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 122 Merrell 25-Jul-19 06:41
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 118 Aine 25-Jul-19 10:41
Agreed 109 drrayeye 25-Jul-19 13:24
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 113 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 15:32
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 104 GramPong 25-Jul-19 16:30
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 93 Aine 26-Jul-19 16:02
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 105 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 07:28
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 115 Aine 25-Jul-19 10:39
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 136 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 11:27
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 89 Aine 25-Jul-19 13:21
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 120 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 15:13
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 112 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 16:28
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 139 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 18:49
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 117 Thanos5150 26-Jul-19 15:15
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 116 Martin Stower 26-Jul-19 19:16
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 111 Aine 26-Jul-19 16:18
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 117 Aine 26-Jul-19 15:50
Re: Stargate 115 Aine 23-Jul-19 22:25
Re: Stargate 109 Thanos5150 23-Jul-19 23:39
Re: Stargate 118 Aine 24-Jul-19 00:59
Re: Stargate 97 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 03:43
Re: Stargate 164 Aine 24-Jul-19 11:16
Re: Stargate 112 Poster Boy 24-Jul-19 23:18
Re: Stargate 115 Corpuscles 25-Jul-19 00:25
Re: Stargate 84 Poster Boy 25-Jul-19 03:04
Re: Stargate 100 Poster Boy 25-Jul-19 20:48
Re: Stargate 124 Corpuscles 25-Jul-19 22:32
Collateral damage 124 hendrik dirker 26-Jul-19 02:02
Re: Collateral damage 108 Corpuscles 26-Jul-19 03:36
Re: Stargate 139 R Avry Wilson 26-Jul-19 03:25
Re: mirage.. 95 Poster Boy 26-Jul-19 04:55
Re: mirage.. 107 R Avry Wilson 26-Jul-19 08:28
Re: Stargate 100 Poster Boy 26-Jul-19 05:07
Re: Stargate 116 Corpuscles 26-Jul-19 05:31
Re: Stargate 100 Poster Boy 26-Jul-19 14:09
Re: Stargate 104 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 01:59
Re: Stargate 102 Poster Boy 25-Jul-19 02:10
Re: Stargate 116 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 02:31
Re: Stargate 96 Poster Boy 25-Jul-19 02:54
Re: Stargate 114 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 03:26
Re: Stargate 126 Poster Boy 25-Jul-19 03:31
Re: Stargate 109 GramPong 25-Jul-19 11:57
Cloaking ? 89 Poster Boy 25-Jul-19 21:35
Re: Stargate 131 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 11:32
Re: Stargate 100 Poster Boy 26-Jul-19 04:58
Re: Stargate 122 Martin Stower 24-Jul-19 13:24
Re: Stargate 131 drrayeye 24-Jul-19 15:13
"The Book Of The Damned" - A Debunker's Dream? 106 Barbelo 24-Jul-19 01:48
Re: Stargate 109 GramPong 19-Jul-19 23:33
The Emerald Tablets 127 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 02:19
Re: The Emerald Tablets 129 GramPong 20-Jul-19 02:53
Re: The Emerald Tablets 120 Merrell 20-Jul-19 09:04
Re: The Emerald Tablets 127 GramPong 20-Jul-19 15:03
Re: The Emerald Tablets 105 cladking 20-Jul-19 22:12
Re: The Emerald Tablets 131 Merrell 20-Jul-19 12:39
Re: The Emerald Tablets 124 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 21:28
Re: The Emerald Tablets 150 Merrell 20-Jul-19 22:04
Re: The Emerald Tablets 108 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 22:34
Re: The Emerald Tablets 116 Martin Stower 20-Jul-19 22:41
Re: The Emerald Tablets 128 Barbelo 21-Jul-19 01:01
Re: The Emerald Tablets 109 Martin Stower 22-Jul-19 15:28
Re: The Emerald Tablets 100 Barbelo 22-Jul-19 21:27
Re: Stargate 100 GramPong 19-Jul-19 22:15
Re: Stargate 117 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 23:02
Re: Stargate 117 GramPong 20-Jul-19 02:01
Re: Stargate 118 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 02:21
Re: Stargate 134 Merrell 20-Jul-19 08:45
Re: Stargate 171 Martin Stower 18-Jul-19 22:26
Re: Stargate 146 Merrell 19-Jul-19 11:46
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 194 Martin Stower 17-Jul-19 21:34
Trey Smith 121 GramPong 24-Jul-19 19:56
Re: Trey Smith 122 Lee McGiffen 26-Jul-19 03:09
Re: Trey Smith 131 GramPong 26-Jul-19 10:44
Mod Warning > General > Topic Closed 185 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Jul-19 20:04


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