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Poster Boy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi GramPong
>
> Not sure where you're coming from, or what's
> excited you of late, but I would say, Take a very
> deep breath when it comes to anything to do with
> Stichen.
> [www.sitchiniswrong.com]

Myself:

Quote

> It has been established that Sitchin could not
> actually read the texts that he claims to have
> translated.

No it has not. This says nothing about how well he could read them mind you, but all that has been "established" is that his translations, obviously, do not jibe with traditional interpretations of which Sitchin makes it abundantly clear are his alone. In the process, Sitchin has purportedly made several errors or taken undue poetic license with his translations in support of his overall claims. This may well be true, but keep in mind your parroted comments are derived almost exclusively from one Michael S Heiser who:
Quote

Mike has an active ministry to people whose worldview is molded by occult, paranormal, and esoteric beliefs. He observed that many who have adopted “alternative” worldviews were formerly traditional theists and Christians who left the faith when their questions on difficult passages and topics went unanswered, or when spiritual leaders failed to address experiences they had had. Mike seeks to fill these gaps as a Christian scholar and has become well known in these circles through writing, speaking, and numerous radio appearances.
Logos.

Can't imagine any bias there.

Interestingly, I have yet to find anywhere in Heiser's "debunking" of Sitchin's translations that he himself can read cuneiform, but rather relies on translations from the likes of the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary and ESL among others. For example, his treatment of seal VA243; he does not translate what it says himself, but rather relies on other sources to tell him what it says:
Quote

The seal is transliterated (the Sumero-Akkadian signs in English letters) and translated in the
principal publication of the Berlin Vorderasiatische Museum’s publication of its seal collection,
Vorderasiatische Rollsiegel (“West Asian Cylinder Seals”; 1940) by Mesopotamian scholar Anton
Moortgat on page 101. This book is in German, so I offer the German and an English translation:
Line 1 = dub-si-ga “Dubsiga” [a personal name of an apparently powerful personc]
Line 2 = ili-il-la-at “Ili-illat” [another personal name, this time of the seal’s owner]
Line 3 = ir3-su “dein Knecht” [German for “your servant”d]

So Sitchin is "wrong" because of translations made by one Anton Moortgat in 1940?

In which he had to follow up further still with someone else: "In an email correspondence with Dr. Rudi Mayr, whose dissertation was on cylinder seals, Dr. Mayr commented on the inscriptions and the seal...".

All Heiser has done is research known translations, which he even tells you himself anyone can do, to tell you Sitchin is wrong which was kind of the point of Sitchin retranslating them in that he thought scholars got it wrong in the first place.

Heiser says: "I get asked all the time, “How do you know Sitchin is wrong about aliens in Sumerian tablets?". Which he answers:"Short answer: Because I get my information from the actual ancient scribes. Here's one example among many that could be offered.".

So by "actual ancient scribes" what he really means is other scholars who have translated it for him.

Regardless of the validity of Sitchin's translations or his ideas, I am amazed at how gullible some are to gobble up whatever Heiser says as gospel without ever getting to know who he really is beyond his credentials, what he is actually saying, and where he gets his information from. I suppose it doesn't matter as long as he is saying from a position of "authority" what some desperately want to hear.

Quote

Yes, many Sumerian-Akkadian lexical texts and word lists have been found, spanning more than 3,000yrs, but you do understand, I presume, these all had to be translated by modern scholars in the first place in which many words have been found to have several meanings of which not all scholars agree. These "dictionaries" you are referring to is what has been compiled by modern scholars of these translations, spanning this 3,000yr period, into a searchable form. This is not to defend Sitchin, which I am kind of sick of having to say, but the whole point of his "retranslating", right or wrong, is that he did not agree with some of these translations.

It is hardly the case to think uncovering the true meanings of these ancient words is just as simple as "looking it up in the dictionary". If one looks at even an English dictionary from the 1800's there are many words that have meaning today that it did not then and vise versa. Regarding one of the more contentious translations of Sitchin's, the word "Nephilim", if we want to know what it means then all we need to do is look it up in a dictionary right? It tells us it means:"Nephilim: "giants," name of two peoples, one before the flood and one after the flood".

According to Sitchin, however:
“What then does the term Nefilim mean? Stemming from the Semitic root NFL (“to be cast down”), it means exactly what it says. It means those who were cast down upon the earth.”

And here is Heiser to tell you why Sitchin is wrong and that it can only mean "giants".

Well, I guess that's it then. Heiser and the dictionary agree.

But wait, here is Ronald S Hendel, Norma and Sam Dabby Professor of Hebrew Bible and Jewish Studies at the University of California, Berkeley, Dept. of Near Eastern Studies, explaining why Heiser is wrong: Michael Heiser's (Mis)interpretation of "Nephilim" as "Giants" not "fallen Ones".

But how can this be if all one needs to do is "look it up in the dictionary"?

And if you actually read it, Hendel notes that Victor P. Hamilton, Professor of Old Testament and Theology at Asbury University from 1971 until 2007, translates Nephilim as...wait for it...:"‘those who were made to fall; those who were cast down’".

Sound familiar?

Some quotes from Hendel regarding Heiser's translations:

What you have written here and in your post helps me understand how you have come to your conclusion, which I continue to consider is unsound.

So your reliance on the Aramaic “meaning” of Nephilin faces what I consider is an insurmountable problem, and I hope I have made this problem clearer to you.
[Lol]

If you wish to continue to make an argument that the Aramaic meaning of the term “Nephilin” is “giants” and that this meaning influenced the Hebrew, the onus is on you to provide the evidence. But there is no evidence – is there?

Ouch.

Of course I hope none who read this are stupid enough to suggest I am implying either Hendel or Hamilton endorse Sitchin's ancient astronaut hypothesis, but I note this to illustrate the simple point these matters are not as simple as some would have others believe.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 1359 GramPong 15-Jul-19 21:31
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 265 Merrell 16-Jul-19 07:15
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 208 GramPong 16-Jul-19 11:02
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 189 Merrell 16-Jul-19 14:10
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 165 GramPong 16-Jul-19 15:25
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 170 Martin Stower 16-Jul-19 21:08
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 157 GramPong 16-Jul-19 22:44
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 163 PB Bytes 16-Jul-19 23:24
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 151 GramPong 16-Jul-19 23:43
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 139 Thanos5150 17-Jul-19 15:46
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 159 GramPong 17-Jul-19 15:56
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 149 Corpuscles 17-Jul-19 23:32
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 137 GramPong 18-Jul-19 00:49
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 155 Corpuscles 18-Jul-19 02:54
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 145 GramPong 18-Jul-19 12:55
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 130 Corpuscles 18-Jul-19 16:47
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 159 GramPong 18-Jul-19 17:39
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 128 Susan Doris 19-Jul-19 05:06
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 156 Thanos5150 18-Jul-19 03:36
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 125 GramPong 18-Jul-19 13:15
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 157 PB Bytes 17-Jul-19 17:40
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 127 Thanos5150 18-Jul-19 03:14
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 147 PB Bytes 18-Jul-19 15:11
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 144 Thanos5150 19-Jul-19 15:36
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 123 PB Bytes 19-Jul-19 15:54
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 151 Thanos5150 20-Jul-19 01:23
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 130 PB Bytes 21-Jul-19 04:04
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 160 Martin Stower 17-Jul-19 07:48
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 129 GramPong 17-Jul-19 08:44
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 223 Martin Stower 16-Jul-19 08:51
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 163 GramPong 16-Jul-19 10:53
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 125 Barbelo 16-Jul-19 21:09
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 159 Martin Stower 16-Jul-19 21:30
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 133 GramPong 16-Jul-19 22:23
Immortality & Resurrection 160 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 00:17
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 134 GramPong 17-Jul-19 00:28
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 155 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 01:37
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 121 GramPong 17-Jul-19 02:13
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 131 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 03:37
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 152 GramPong 17-Jul-19 03:58
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 154 Martin Stower 17-Jul-19 07:44
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 128 GramPong 17-Jul-19 09:10
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 132 Merrell 17-Jul-19 07:52
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 146 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 11:33
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 138 Corpuscles 17-Jul-19 03:03
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 122 GramPong 17-Jul-19 03:21
Barnhardt Klaatu Exchange 137 Dr. Troglodyte 17-Jul-19 13:00
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 162 Merrell 17-Jul-19 07:56
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 154 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 11:35
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 193 Merrell 17-Jul-19 13:54
Stargate 147 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 22:23
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 163 Barbelo 18-Jul-19 02:34
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 155 GramPong 18-Jul-19 13:18
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 170 Barbelo 18-Jul-19 22:02
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 120 GramPong 18-Jul-19 22:15
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 167 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 00:45
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 183 Martin Stower 19-Jul-19 20:48
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 134 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 21:38
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 142 Martin Stower 20-Jul-19 22:35
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 137 Barbelo 21-Jul-19 00:49
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 158 Martin Stower 22-Jul-19 15:30
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 115 Barbelo 22-Jul-19 21:03
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 152 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 04:49
Re: Stargate 169 Merrell 18-Jul-19 08:05
Re: Stargate 140 Barbelo 18-Jul-19 22:10
Re: Stargate 173 Merrell 19-Jul-19 11:25
Re: Stargate 156 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 21:28
Re: Stargate 138 Merrell 19-Jul-19 21:52
Re: Stargate 176 Thanos5150 20-Jul-19 15:32
Re: Stargate 141 Merrell 20-Jul-19 15:45
Re: Stargate 126 Thanos5150 23-Jul-19 21:30
Re: Stargate 122 Aine 23-Jul-19 23:03
Re: Stargate 142 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 00:05
Re: Stargate 132 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 00:43
Re: Stargate 107 Aine 24-Jul-19 01:09
Re: Stargate 124 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 01:33
Re: Stargate 129 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 01:56
Re: Stargate 136 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 03:47
Re: Stargate 119 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 15:05
Re: Stargate 114 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 23:08
Re: Stargate 123 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 01:46
Mod Note > Duplicate Postings 106 Dr. Troglodyte 25-Jul-19 17:13
Re: Stargate 143 Merrell 21-Jul-19 12:34
Re: Stargate 137 Martin Stower 22-Jul-19 15:40
Re: Stargate 120 Thanos5150 23-Jul-19 21:56
Re: Stargate 153 jazzmumbles 22-Jul-19 01:04
Re: Stargate 137 Merrell 22-Jul-19 06:49
Re: Stargate 123 drrayeye 22-Jul-19 17:18
The EcuadorianToilet Float of the Gods 122 Merrell 22-Jul-19 19:47
debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 141 drrayeye 22-Jul-19 22:25
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 134 Merrell 24-Jul-19 12:43
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 128 Martin Stower 24-Jul-19 13:36
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 122 drrayeye 24-Jul-19 14:31
And..... 119 Barbelo 24-Jul-19 22:19
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 109 drrayeye 24-Jul-19 14:29
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 117 Merrell 25-Jul-19 06:43
Debunkatron 115 drrayeye 25-Jul-19 06:50
Re: Debunkatron 120 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 08:24
Re: Debunkatron 130 drrayeye 25-Jul-19 13:16
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 127 Aine 26-Jul-19 16:04
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 158 Aine 24-Jul-19 17:06
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 136 Merrell 25-Jul-19 06:41
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 130 Aine 25-Jul-19 10:41
Agreed 120 drrayeye 25-Jul-19 13:24
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 125 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 15:32
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 115 GramPong 25-Jul-19 16:30
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 107 Aine 26-Jul-19 16:02
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 117 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 07:28
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 126 Aine 25-Jul-19 10:39
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 147 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 11:27
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 99 Aine 25-Jul-19 13:21
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 133 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 15:13
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 124 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 16:28
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 151 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 18:49
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 129 Thanos5150 26-Jul-19 15:15
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 130 Martin Stower 26-Jul-19 19:16
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 121 Aine 26-Jul-19 16:18
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 129 Aine 26-Jul-19 15:50
Re: Stargate 127 Aine 23-Jul-19 22:25
Re: Stargate 124 Thanos5150 23-Jul-19 23:39
Re: Stargate 135 Aine 24-Jul-19 00:59
Re: Stargate 109 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 03:43
Re: Stargate 177 Aine 24-Jul-19 11:16
Re: Stargate 123 PB Bytes 24-Jul-19 23:18
Re: Stargate 127 Corpuscles 25-Jul-19 00:25
Re: Stargate 95 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 03:04
Re: Stargate 110 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 20:48
Re: Stargate 134 Corpuscles 25-Jul-19 22:32
Collateral damage 140 hendrik dirker 26-Jul-19 02:02
Re: Collateral damage 118 Corpuscles 26-Jul-19 03:36
Re: Stargate 161 R Avry Wilson 26-Jul-19 03:25
Re: mirage.. 105 PB Bytes 26-Jul-19 04:55
Re: mirage.. 128 R Avry Wilson 26-Jul-19 08:28
Re: Stargate 114 PB Bytes 26-Jul-19 05:07
Re: Stargate 126 Corpuscles 26-Jul-19 05:31
Re: Stargate 113 PB Bytes 26-Jul-19 14:09
Re: Stargate 116 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 01:59
Re: Stargate 113 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 02:10
Re: Stargate 128 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 02:31
Re: Stargate 107 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 02:54
Re: Stargate 126 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 03:26
Re: Stargate 139 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 03:31
Re: Stargate 126 GramPong 25-Jul-19 11:57
Cloaking ? 99 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 21:35
Re: Stargate 145 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 11:32
Re: Stargate 115 PB Bytes 26-Jul-19 04:58
Re: Stargate 135 Martin Stower 24-Jul-19 13:24
Re: Stargate 144 drrayeye 24-Jul-19 15:13
"The Book Of The Damned" - A Debunker's Dream? 119 Barbelo 24-Jul-19 01:48
Re: Stargate 120 GramPong 19-Jul-19 23:33
The Emerald Tablets 139 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 02:19
Re: The Emerald Tablets 140 GramPong 20-Jul-19 02:53
Re: The Emerald Tablets 134 Merrell 20-Jul-19 09:04
Re: The Emerald Tablets 140 GramPong 20-Jul-19 15:03
Re: The Emerald Tablets 116 cladking 20-Jul-19 22:12
Re: The Emerald Tablets 146 Merrell 20-Jul-19 12:39
Re: The Emerald Tablets 137 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 21:28
Re: The Emerald Tablets 169 Merrell 20-Jul-19 22:04
Re: The Emerald Tablets 122 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 22:34
Re: The Emerald Tablets 129 Martin Stower 20-Jul-19 22:41
Re: The Emerald Tablets 143 Barbelo 21-Jul-19 01:01
Re: The Emerald Tablets 125 Martin Stower 22-Jul-19 15:28
Re: The Emerald Tablets 113 Barbelo 22-Jul-19 21:27
Re: Stargate 112 GramPong 19-Jul-19 22:15
Re: Stargate 129 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 23:02
Re: Stargate 127 GramPong 20-Jul-19 02:01
Re: Stargate 130 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 02:21
Re: Stargate 148 Merrell 20-Jul-19 08:45
Re: Stargate 184 Martin Stower 18-Jul-19 22:26
Re: Stargate 159 Merrell 19-Jul-19 11:46
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 205 Martin Stower 17-Jul-19 21:34
Trey Smith 134 GramPong 24-Jul-19 19:56
Re: Trey Smith 141 Lee McGiffen 26-Jul-19 03:09
Re: Trey Smith 142 GramPong 26-Jul-19 10:44
Mod Warning > General > Topic Closed 200 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Jul-19 20:04


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