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MDaines Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanos, you are the one who began the quibbling
> here,

In response to this from you:
Quote

But we know that there are ancient accounts of a connection between Harran and Egypt, through Hermes who is understood to be Thoth and the prophet of the Sabians. The Sabians were scattered at some point and no doubt their writings with them. Who knows where they originated?


What I "began" with:
Quote

These connections are nearly 2,000yrs or more after the fact and have no relevance to Egyptian history prior to these times. The relationship with Harran, for example, was established in the 7th century BC when the Assyrians invaded and conquered Egypt. Harran itself was not even founded until the end of the 3rd millennium. The poorly documented Sabians, mostly from less than credible Arab accounts, are from AD times and the connection they have with Egypt is only by way of their alleged belief in some form of Hermeticism. The connection between Hermes and Thoth was made in the Ptolemaic Period and one imposed by the Greeks with no historical relevance prior to its invention.

I did not realize noting a nearly 3,000yr gap between the Sabians and the 4th Dynasty was considered "quibbling".

The "quibbling" actually started with you regarding my comment the city of Harran was not founded until the end of the 3rd millennium:
Quote

The founding of Harran at the end of the 3rd millennium? Do you know of a text that establishes plainly that Harran did not exist earlier than that? Of course, there is the mention of Harran in Genesis, not that it helps with a timeframe. There is a town not too far away from Harran, ancient Edessa now called Sanliurfa, that has some rather lovely gardens and an ongoing tradition concerning Abraham. Apparently, it was on a par with Harran for its teachings at one time – Arabian source in AD, of course.

The Syrian Ebla tablets gave Harran as ‘a crossroads for trade in the Middle East’ at around 2300 BC. It would have been active well before that if it was already known far and wide as a crossroads. In fact, its very position along with this description would no doubt mean that Harran was in full contact with Egypt in the 3rd millennium, if not before.

> also the one who backpedalled on your very
> blunt statement of fact – yes, that is the term
> for it.

Which obviously your continued accusal of some kind of inequity on my part is nothing more than an emotional one for no other reason than it contradicts your beliefs, none of which having to do with the actual facts, my own actions least among them.

Prior to the Ebla tablets the oldest reference to Harran was c.2000BC and the city was believed to have been founded towards the end of the 3rd millennium which would be sometime between 2300-2000BC. Obviously, in context of the noted text, it stands to reason this would have occurred at least a few centuries before meaning sometime c.2300-2200BC. This should not be that hard for you to comprehend.

The Ebla tablets were discovered in the 1970's and translations offered in the decades that followed. The texts that mention Harran are dated to the last few generations before Ebla was sacked which is most commonly dated by way of the Near East "Middle chronology" of 2334-2154BC corresponding to the Akkadian Empire The "c.2300BC" is just a placeholder date rounded up for convenience with the more common date used c.2250BC which itself is rounded up from the average of the high and low of these dates which would be 2244BC. This is but one chronology used. The Low chronology is 2270-2083BC which would date these tablets on average to c.2177BC. If the Ultra-low chronology is used the average is then 2109BC. So while you are clinging to a date of "c.2300BC" it is actually c.2244BC and is only worse if other chronologies are used being c.2177BC and c.2109BC respectively.

Middle chronology is derived from fixing the two dates of the reign of Hammurabi (by way of Ammisaduqa), 1792-1750BC, and the sack of Babylon to 1595BC. The reign of Hammurabi, for example, is derived from highly contested interpretations of the the "Venus Tablet" which vary more than 200yrs where some suggest it is bunk in the first place. To make matters worse, the Venus Tablet dates to the 8th century BC and is said to be copies from earlier documents from the reign of Ammisaduqa, the 4th ruler after Hammurabi. Physicist Wayne Mitchel, for example, provides a "Venus Solution" which redates Ammisaduga's rule to 1419BC meaning Hammurabi would have first ruled c.1565BC, over 200yrs later than the accepted Middle chronology date. Meaning, this would also pull the Ebla tablets forward in time by over 200yrs as well, i.e the Ultra low chronology of c.2109BC. Oops. .

And apparently you missed the part where I said the archaeology of Harran has not yielded results prior to the first half of the 3rd millennium which would mean before c.2500BC. Hence why I am willing to revise my statement by a few centuries. And what has been found, the first remains of the city, could just as easily be at any point in the latter half including 2300BC or later. The urban expansion of the period is generally dated to c. 2600-2400BC which by all accounts the founding of the city of Harran was a part of so I defer to the greater context of the archaeology.


[snip]

Blech. No thanks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07-Mar-19 04:49 by Thanos5150.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 3608 MDaines 22-Feb-19 09:52
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 543 Thanos5150 22-Feb-19 16:15
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 407 MDaines 23-Feb-19 18:01
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 397 Thanos5150 24-Feb-19 03:06
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 372 Eddie Larry 22-Feb-19 18:39
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 371 cladking 22-Feb-19 20:12
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 377 MDaines 23-Feb-19 07:40
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 326 cladking 23-Feb-19 14:28
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 328 MDaines 23-Feb-19 15:23
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 277 cladking 02-Mar-19 16:31
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 319 Eddie Larry 23-Feb-19 16:24
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 322 Spiros 25-Feb-19 00:41
On the subject of Zechariah Sitchin 378 MDaines 25-Feb-19 14:49
Re: On the subject of Zechariah Sitchin 292 Spiros 04-Mar-19 01:11
The Exalted Sumero-Greek EN 301 MDaines 04-Mar-19 18:24
A Big Ask 361 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Feb-19 01:27
Re: A Big Ask 290 MDaines 26-Feb-19 14:25
Re: A Big Ask 356 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Feb-19 17:14
Re: A Big Ask 262 MDaines 26-Feb-19 19:30
Re: A Big Ask 281 Barbelo 26-Feb-19 20:23
Re: A Big Ask 286 MDaines 27-Feb-19 12:13
Re: A Big Ask 235 Barbelo 27-Feb-19 20:28
Re: A Big Ask 242 MDaines 28-Feb-19 14:05
Re: A Big Ask 265 Barbelo 28-Feb-19 19:59
Re: A Big Ask 297 Thanos5150 01-Mar-19 00:46
Re: A Big Ask 290 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 01:19
Re: A Big Ask 316 Thanos5150 01-Mar-19 05:20
Re: A Weird Ask 300 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 11:13
Re: A Weird Ask 294 Thanos5150 02-Mar-19 05:12
Re: A Weird Ask 296 Barbelo 02-Mar-19 07:06
Re: A Big Ask 261 MDaines 01-Mar-19 18:35
Re: A Big Ask 258 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 21:42
Re: A Big Ask 280 Thanos5150 28-Feb-19 03:33
Re: A Big Ask 278 Thanos5150 28-Feb-19 17:11
Re: A Big Ask 260 MDaines 28-Feb-19 18:08
Heliopolis 276 Barbelo 28-Feb-19 20:18
Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 342 Dr. Troglodyte 04-Mar-19 23:56
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 292 MDaines 10-Mar-19 14:41
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 290 Dr. Troglodyte 12-Mar-19 00:17
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 254 MDaines 15-Mar-19 07:17
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 331 Dr. Troglodyte 15-Mar-19 16:41
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 313 molder 26-Feb-19 21:23
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 296 MDaines 27-Feb-19 12:06
Three Wise Men 254 MDaines 02-Mar-19 15:31
Re: Three Wise Men 253 Thanos5150 02-Mar-19 17:05
Harran and the Sabians 308 MDaines 03-Mar-19 08:33
Re: Harran and the Sabians 317 Thanos5150 03-Mar-19 16:40
Re: Harran and the Sabians 286 MDaines 03-Mar-19 19:24
Re: Harran and the Sabians 242 Thanos5150 06-Mar-19 01:50
Re: Harran and the Sabians 245 MDaines 06-Mar-19 08:22
Re: Harran and the Sabians 232 Thanos5150 07-Mar-19 02:09
Re: Harran and the Sabians 261 MDaines 07-Mar-19 08:20
On the subject of Ebla and the Feather of Truth 257 MDaines 08-Mar-19 08:57
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 307 Broker 14-Mar-19 03:25
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 252 MDaines 17-Mar-19 09:11
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 259 SandyJesse 18-Apr-19 04:33
Celestial navigation and the ship 230 MDaines 23-Apr-19 07:21
Re: Celestial navigation and the ship 235 SandyJesse 25-Apr-19 01:50
Re: Celestial navigation and the ship 233 SandyJesse 30-Apr-19 05:16
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 210 seasmith 03-May-19 22:24
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 202 MDaines 04-May-19 08:28
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 197 seasmith 05-May-19 01:39
BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 230 MDaines 09-May-19 09:46
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 227 SandyJesse 12-May-19 09:58
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 196 MDaines 12-May-19 10:22
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 189 SandyJesse 14-May-19 05:21
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 179 MDaines 14-May-19 07:46
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 201 SandyJesse 16-May-19 03:19
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 173 drew 15-May-19 01:21
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 162 Barbelo 15-May-19 10:48
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 203 drew 15-May-19 23:59
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 176 Barbelo 16-May-19 01:45
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 143 drew 18-Jun-19 02:15
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 142 Barbelo 18-Jun-19 02:43
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 183 hendrik dirker 18-Jun-19 06:59
movement of Sun along horizon 151 hendrik dirker 19-Jun-19 16:23
Solstice & the epoch1250 BC 277 hendrik dirker 20-Jun-19 07:02
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 174 MDaines 15-May-19 11:00
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 191 Horatech 15-May-19 12:10
To Easter Island? 187 MDaines 15-May-19 18:10
Re: To Easter Island? 182 Horatech 16-May-19 06:56
Re: To Easter Island? 173 Horatech 16-May-19 23:48
Re: To Easter Island? 204 Horatech 17-May-19 06:25
Re: To Easter Island? 155 Barbelo 17-May-19 10:53
Re: To Easter Island? 195 MDaines 17-May-19 11:41
What A Shame 170 Barbelo 17-May-19 21:14
Re: What A Shame 191 MDaines 18-May-19 07:57
Great Circles and Small Circles 183 Dr. Troglodyte 18-May-19 17:34
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 205 MDaines 18-May-19 19:09
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 178 Dr. Troglodyte 19-May-19 17:07
Going Round in Circles and then to Easter Island? 219 MDaines 19-May-19 18:10
Re: Going Round in Circles and then to Easter Island? 199 Horatech 25-May-19 10:53
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 195 Horatech 20-May-19 07:33
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 175 Horatech 21-May-19 09:52
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 215 Dr. Troglodyte 21-May-19 18:30
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 230 MDaines 23-May-19 07:51
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 202 Horatech 23-May-19 10:48
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 188 MDaines 23-May-19 17:07
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 203 Horatech 24-May-19 08:12
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 222 Dr. Troglodyte 23-May-19 16:05
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 201 MDaines 23-May-19 17:05
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 227 Dr. Troglodyte 23-May-19 17:31
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 238 Horatech 27-May-19 10:30
Re: What A Shame 180 Barbelo 19-May-19 20:48
Re: To Easter Island? 170 Horatech 18-May-19 09:28
Re: To Easter Island? 156 Eddie Larry 17-May-19 15:11
Re: To Easter Island? 164 Horatech 18-May-19 14:58
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 189 drew 15-May-19 23:57
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 185 MDaines 16-May-19 06:14
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 170 drew 16-May-19 06:42
ps 161 drew 16-May-19 07:22
Re: ps 157 Barbelo 16-May-19 11:11
Re: ps 179 MDaines 16-May-19 12:10
Re: ps 199 Thanos5150 16-May-19 16:06
Re: ps 196 Barbelo 16-May-19 21:00
Sometimes I go the long way round… 215 drew 17-May-19 00:59


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