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MDaines Wrote:
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> Thanos, you are the one who began the quibbling
> here,

In response to this from you:
Quote

But we know that there are ancient accounts of a connection between Harran and Egypt, through Hermes who is understood to be Thoth and the prophet of the Sabians. The Sabians were scattered at some point and no doubt their writings with them. Who knows where they originated?


What I "began" with:
Quote

These connections are nearly 2,000yrs or more after the fact and have no relevance to Egyptian history prior to these times. The relationship with Harran, for example, was established in the 7th century BC when the Assyrians invaded and conquered Egypt. Harran itself was not even founded until the end of the 3rd millennium. The poorly documented Sabians, mostly from less than credible Arab accounts, are from AD times and the connection they have with Egypt is only by way of their alleged belief in some form of Hermeticism. The connection between Hermes and Thoth was made in the Ptolemaic Period and one imposed by the Greeks with no historical relevance prior to its invention.

I did not realize noting a nearly 3,000yr gap between the Sabians and the 4th Dynasty was considered "quibbling".

The "quibbling" actually started with you regarding my comment the city of Harran was not founded until the end of the 3rd millennium:
Quote

The founding of Harran at the end of the 3rd millennium? Do you know of a text that establishes plainly that Harran did not exist earlier than that? Of course, there is the mention of Harran in Genesis, not that it helps with a timeframe. There is a town not too far away from Harran, ancient Edessa now called Sanliurfa, that has some rather lovely gardens and an ongoing tradition concerning Abraham. Apparently, it was on a par with Harran for its teachings at one time – Arabian source in AD, of course.

The Syrian Ebla tablets gave Harran as ‘a crossroads for trade in the Middle East’ at around 2300 BC. It would have been active well before that if it was already known far and wide as a crossroads. In fact, its very position along with this description would no doubt mean that Harran was in full contact with Egypt in the 3rd millennium, if not before.

> also the one who backpedalled on your very
> blunt statement of fact – yes, that is the term
> for it.

Which obviously your continued accusal of some kind of inequity on my part is nothing more than an emotional one for no other reason than it contradicts your beliefs, none of which having to do with the actual facts, my own actions least among them.

Prior to the Ebla tablets the oldest reference to Harran was c.2000BC and the city was believed to have been founded towards the end of the 3rd millennium which would be sometime between 2300-2000BC. Obviously, in context of the noted text, it stands to reason this would have occurred at least a few centuries before meaning sometime c.2300-2200BC. This should not be that hard for you to comprehend.

The Ebla tablets were discovered in the 1970's and translations offered in the decades that followed. The texts that mention Harran are dated to the last few generations before Ebla was sacked which is most commonly dated by way of the Near East "Middle chronology" of 2334-2154BC corresponding to the Akkadian Empire The "c.2300BC" is just a placeholder date rounded up for convenience with the more common date used c.2250BC which itself is rounded up from the average of the high and low of these dates which would be 2244BC. This is but one chronology used. The Low chronology is 2270-2083BC which would date these tablets on average to c.2177BC. If the Ultra-low chronology is used the average is then 2109BC. So while you are clinging to a date of "c.2300BC" it is actually c.2244BC and is only worse if other chronologies are used being c.2177BC and c.2109BC respectively.

Middle chronology is derived from fixing the two dates of the reign of Hammurabi (by way of Ammisaduqa), 1792-1750BC, and the sack of Babylon to 1595BC. The reign of Hammurabi, for example, is derived from highly contested interpretations of the the "Venus Tablet" which vary more than 200yrs where some suggest it is bunk in the first place. To make matters worse, the Venus Tablet dates to the 8th century BC and is said to be copies from earlier documents from the reign of Ammisaduqa, the 4th ruler after Hammurabi. Physicist Wayne Mitchel, for example, provides a "Venus Solution" which redates Ammisaduga's rule to 1419BC meaning Hammurabi would have first ruled c.1565BC, over 200yrs later than the accepted Middle chronology date. Meaning, this would also pull the Ebla tablets forward in time by over 200yrs as well, i.e the Ultra low chronology of c.2109BC. Oops. .

And apparently you missed the part where I said the archaeology of Harran has not yielded results prior to the first half of the 3rd millennium which would mean before c.2500BC. Hence why I am willing to revise my statement by a few centuries. And what has been found, the first remains of the city, could just as easily be at any point in the latter half including 2300BC or later. The urban expansion of the period is generally dated to c. 2600-2400BC which by all accounts the founding of the city of Harran was a part of so I defer to the greater context of the archaeology.


[snip]

Blech. No thanks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07-Mar-19 04:49 by Thanos5150.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 3499 MDaines 22-Feb-19 09:52
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 496 Thanos5150 22-Feb-19 16:15
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 366 MDaines 23-Feb-19 18:01
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 331 Thanos5150 24-Feb-19 03:06
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 344 Eddie Larry 22-Feb-19 18:39
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 331 cladking 22-Feb-19 20:12
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 321 MDaines 23-Feb-19 07:40
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 287 cladking 23-Feb-19 14:28
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 292 MDaines 23-Feb-19 15:23
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 244 cladking 02-Mar-19 16:31
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 283 Eddie Larry 23-Feb-19 16:24
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 286 Spiros 25-Feb-19 00:41
On the subject of Zechariah Sitchin 326 MDaines 25-Feb-19 14:49
Re: On the subject of Zechariah Sitchin 258 Spiros 04-Mar-19 01:11
The Exalted Sumero-Greek EN 259 MDaines 04-Mar-19 18:24
A Big Ask 323 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Feb-19 01:27
Re: A Big Ask 256 MDaines 26-Feb-19 14:25
Re: A Big Ask 321 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Feb-19 17:14
Re: A Big Ask 229 MDaines 26-Feb-19 19:30
Re: A Big Ask 245 Barbelo 26-Feb-19 20:23
Re: A Big Ask 254 MDaines 27-Feb-19 12:13
Re: A Big Ask 204 Barbelo 27-Feb-19 20:28
Re: A Big Ask 206 MDaines 28-Feb-19 14:05
Re: A Big Ask 235 Barbelo 28-Feb-19 19:59
Re: A Big Ask 256 Thanos5150 01-Mar-19 00:46
Re: A Big Ask 255 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 01:19
Re: A Big Ask 272 Thanos5150 01-Mar-19 05:20
Re: A Weird Ask 254 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 11:13
Re: A Weird Ask 238 Thanos5150 02-Mar-19 05:12
Re: A Weird Ask 241 Barbelo 02-Mar-19 07:06
Re: A Big Ask 227 MDaines 01-Mar-19 18:35
Re: A Big Ask 225 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 21:42
Re: A Big Ask 248 Thanos5150 28-Feb-19 03:33
Re: A Big Ask 222 Thanos5150 28-Feb-19 17:11
Re: A Big Ask 225 MDaines 28-Feb-19 18:08
Heliopolis 242 Barbelo 28-Feb-19 20:18
Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 289 Dr. Troglodyte 04-Mar-19 23:56
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 247 MDaines 10-Mar-19 14:41
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 253 Dr. Troglodyte 12-Mar-19 00:17
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 220 MDaines 15-Mar-19 07:17
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 265 Dr. Troglodyte 15-Mar-19 16:41
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 283 molder 26-Feb-19 21:23
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 261 MDaines 27-Feb-19 12:06
Three Wise Men 224 MDaines 02-Mar-19 15:31
Re: Three Wise Men 230 Thanos5150 02-Mar-19 17:05
Harran and the Sabians 247 MDaines 03-Mar-19 08:33
Re: Harran and the Sabians 260 Thanos5150 03-Mar-19 16:40
Re: Harran and the Sabians 246 MDaines 03-Mar-19 19:24
Re: Harran and the Sabians 207 Thanos5150 06-Mar-19 01:50
Re: Harran and the Sabians 216 MDaines 06-Mar-19 08:22
Re: Harran and the Sabians 204 Thanos5150 07-Mar-19 02:09
Re: Harran and the Sabians 228 MDaines 07-Mar-19 08:20
On the subject of Ebla and the Feather of Truth 225 MDaines 08-Mar-19 08:57
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 262 Broker 14-Mar-19 03:25
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 214 MDaines 17-Mar-19 09:11
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 225 SandyJesse 18-Apr-19 04:33
Celestial navigation and the ship 196 MDaines 23-Apr-19 07:21
Re: Celestial navigation and the ship 201 SandyJesse 25-Apr-19 01:50
Re: Celestial navigation and the ship 200 SandyJesse 30-Apr-19 05:16
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 182 seasmith 03-May-19 22:24
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 174 MDaines 04-May-19 08:28
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 169 seasmith 05-May-19 01:39
BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 188 MDaines 09-May-19 09:46
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 176 SandyJesse 12-May-19 09:58
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 163 MDaines 12-May-19 10:22
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 155 SandyJesse 14-May-19 05:21
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 152 MDaines 14-May-19 07:46
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 165 SandyJesse 16-May-19 03:19
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 150 drew 15-May-19 01:21
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 139 Barbelo 15-May-19 10:48
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 171 drew 15-May-19 23:59
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 151 Barbelo 16-May-19 01:45
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 117 drew 18-Jun-19 02:15
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 115 Barbelo 18-Jun-19 02:43
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 154 hendrik dirker 18-Jun-19 06:59
movement of Sun along horizon 126 hendrik dirker 19-Jun-19 16:23
Solstice & the epoch1250 BC 229 hendrik dirker 20-Jun-19 07:02
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 149 MDaines 15-May-19 11:00
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 164 Horatech 15-May-19 12:10
To Easter Island? 157 MDaines 15-May-19 18:10
Re: To Easter Island? 153 Horatech 16-May-19 06:56
Re: To Easter Island? 149 Horatech 16-May-19 23:48
Re: To Easter Island? 164 Horatech 17-May-19 06:25
Re: To Easter Island? 130 Barbelo 17-May-19 10:53
Re: To Easter Island? 166 MDaines 17-May-19 11:41
What A Shame 145 Barbelo 17-May-19 21:14
Re: What A Shame 162 MDaines 18-May-19 07:57
Great Circles and Small Circles 150 Dr. Troglodyte 18-May-19 17:34
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 178 MDaines 18-May-19 19:09
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 150 Dr. Troglodyte 19-May-19 17:07
Going Round in Circles and then to Easter Island? 176 MDaines 19-May-19 18:10
Re: Going Round in Circles and then to Easter Island? 163 Horatech 25-May-19 10:53
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 167 Horatech 20-May-19 07:33
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 149 Horatech 21-May-19 09:52
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 167 Dr. Troglodyte 21-May-19 18:30
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 191 MDaines 23-May-19 07:51
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 169 Horatech 23-May-19 10:48
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 153 MDaines 23-May-19 17:07
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 173 Horatech 24-May-19 08:12
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 196 Dr. Troglodyte 23-May-19 16:05
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 167 MDaines 23-May-19 17:05
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 171 Dr. Troglodyte 23-May-19 17:31
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 191 Horatech 27-May-19 10:30
Re: What A Shame 148 Barbelo 19-May-19 20:48
Re: To Easter Island? 146 Horatech 18-May-19 09:28
Re: To Easter Island? 132 Eddie Larry 17-May-19 15:11
Re: To Easter Island? 138 Horatech 18-May-19 14:58
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 161 drew 15-May-19 23:57
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 155 MDaines 16-May-19 06:14
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 145 drew 16-May-19 06:42
ps 137 drew 16-May-19 07:22
Re: ps 131 Barbelo 16-May-19 11:11
Re: ps 150 MDaines 16-May-19 12:10
Re: ps 171 Thanos5150 16-May-19 16:06
Re: ps 169 Barbelo 16-May-19 21:00
Sometimes I go the long way round… 186 drew 17-May-19 00:59


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