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MDaines Wrote:
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> Thanos, you are the one who began the quibbling
> here,

In response to this from you:
Quote

But we know that there are ancient accounts of a connection between Harran and Egypt, through Hermes who is understood to be Thoth and the prophet of the Sabians. The Sabians were scattered at some point and no doubt their writings with them. Who knows where they originated?


What I "began" with:
Quote

These connections are nearly 2,000yrs or more after the fact and have no relevance to Egyptian history prior to these times. The relationship with Harran, for example, was established in the 7th century BC when the Assyrians invaded and conquered Egypt. Harran itself was not even founded until the end of the 3rd millennium. The poorly documented Sabians, mostly from less than credible Arab accounts, are from AD times and the connection they have with Egypt is only by way of their alleged belief in some form of Hermeticism. The connection between Hermes and Thoth was made in the Ptolemaic Period and one imposed by the Greeks with no historical relevance prior to its invention.

I did not realize noting a nearly 3,000yr gap between the Sabians and the 4th Dynasty was considered "quibbling".

The "quibbling" actually started with you regarding my comment the city of Harran was not founded until the end of the 3rd millennium:
Quote

The founding of Harran at the end of the 3rd millennium? Do you know of a text that establishes plainly that Harran did not exist earlier than that? Of course, there is the mention of Harran in Genesis, not that it helps with a timeframe. There is a town not too far away from Harran, ancient Edessa now called Sanliurfa, that has some rather lovely gardens and an ongoing tradition concerning Abraham. Apparently, it was on a par with Harran for its teachings at one time – Arabian source in AD, of course.

The Syrian Ebla tablets gave Harran as ‘a crossroads for trade in the Middle East’ at around 2300 BC. It would have been active well before that if it was already known far and wide as a crossroads. In fact, its very position along with this description would no doubt mean that Harran was in full contact with Egypt in the 3rd millennium, if not before.

> also the one who backpedalled on your very
> blunt statement of fact – yes, that is the term
> for it.

Which obviously your continued accusal of some kind of inequity on my part is nothing more than an emotional one for no other reason than it contradicts your beliefs, none of which having to do with the actual facts, my own actions least among them.

Prior to the Ebla tablets the oldest reference to Harran was c.2000BC and the city was believed to have been founded towards the end of the 3rd millennium which would be sometime between 2300-2000BC. Obviously, in context of the noted text, it stands to reason this would have occurred at least a few centuries before meaning sometime c.2300-2200BC. This should not be that hard for you to comprehend.

The Ebla tablets were discovered in the 1970's and translations offered in the decades that followed. The texts that mention Harran are dated to the last few generations before Ebla was sacked which is most commonly dated by way of the Near East "Middle chronology" of 2334-2154BC corresponding to the Akkadian Empire The "c.2300BC" is just a placeholder date rounded up for convenience with the more common date used c.2250BC which itself is rounded up from the average of the high and low of these dates which would be 2244BC. This is but one chronology used. The Low chronology is 2270-2083BC which would date these tablets on average to c.2177BC. If the Ultra-low chronology is used the average is then 2109BC. So while you are clinging to a date of "c.2300BC" it is actually c.2244BC and is only worse if other chronologies are used being c.2177BC and c.2109BC respectively.

Middle chronology is derived from fixing the two dates of the reign of Hammurabi (by way of Ammisaduqa), 1792-1750BC, and the sack of Babylon to 1595BC. The reign of Hammurabi, for example, is derived from highly contested interpretations of the the "Venus Tablet" which vary more than 200yrs where some suggest it is bunk in the first place. To make matters worse, the Venus Tablet dates to the 8th century BC and is said to be copies from earlier documents from the reign of Ammisaduqa, the 4th ruler after Hammurabi. Physicist Wayne Mitchel, for example, provides a "Venus Solution" which redates Ammisaduga's rule to 1419BC meaning Hammurabi would have first ruled c.1565BC, over 200yrs later than the accepted Middle chronology date. Meaning, this would also pull the Ebla tablets forward in time by over 200yrs as well, i.e the Ultra low chronology of c.2109BC. Oops. .

And apparently you missed the part where I said the archaeology of Harran has not yielded results prior to the first half of the 3rd millennium which would mean before c.2500BC. Hence why I am willing to revise my statement by a few centuries. And what has been found, the first remains of the city, could just as easily be at any point in the latter half including 2300BC or later. The urban expansion of the period is generally dated to c. 2600-2400BC which by all accounts the founding of the city of Harran was a part of so I defer to the greater context of the archaeology.


[snip]

Blech. No thanks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07-Mar-19 04:49 by Thanos5150.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 3506 MDaines 22-Feb-19 09:52
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 497 Thanos5150 22-Feb-19 16:15
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 371 MDaines 23-Feb-19 18:01
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 337 Thanos5150 24-Feb-19 03:06
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 345 Eddie Larry 22-Feb-19 18:39
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 334 cladking 22-Feb-19 20:12
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 323 MDaines 23-Feb-19 07:40
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 293 cladking 23-Feb-19 14:28
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 294 MDaines 23-Feb-19 15:23
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 249 cladking 02-Mar-19 16:31
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 283 Eddie Larry 23-Feb-19 16:24
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 290 Spiros 25-Feb-19 00:41
On the subject of Zechariah Sitchin 332 MDaines 25-Feb-19 14:49
Re: On the subject of Zechariah Sitchin 261 Spiros 04-Mar-19 01:11
The Exalted Sumero-Greek EN 263 MDaines 04-Mar-19 18:24
A Big Ask 328 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Feb-19 01:27
Re: A Big Ask 258 MDaines 26-Feb-19 14:25
Re: A Big Ask 325 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Feb-19 17:14
Re: A Big Ask 235 MDaines 26-Feb-19 19:30
Re: A Big Ask 248 Barbelo 26-Feb-19 20:23
Re: A Big Ask 255 MDaines 27-Feb-19 12:13
Re: A Big Ask 205 Barbelo 27-Feb-19 20:28
Re: A Big Ask 207 MDaines 28-Feb-19 14:05
Re: A Big Ask 238 Barbelo 28-Feb-19 19:59
Re: A Big Ask 256 Thanos5150 01-Mar-19 00:46
Re: A Big Ask 256 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 01:19
Re: A Big Ask 277 Thanos5150 01-Mar-19 05:20
Re: A Weird Ask 261 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 11:13
Re: A Weird Ask 240 Thanos5150 02-Mar-19 05:12
Re: A Weird Ask 244 Barbelo 02-Mar-19 07:06
Re: A Big Ask 229 MDaines 01-Mar-19 18:35
Re: A Big Ask 226 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 21:42
Re: A Big Ask 250 Thanos5150 28-Feb-19 03:33
Re: A Big Ask 223 Thanos5150 28-Feb-19 17:11
Re: A Big Ask 226 MDaines 28-Feb-19 18:08
Heliopolis 243 Barbelo 28-Feb-19 20:18
Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 296 Dr. Troglodyte 04-Mar-19 23:56
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 250 MDaines 10-Mar-19 14:41
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 258 Dr. Troglodyte 12-Mar-19 00:17
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 222 MDaines 15-Mar-19 07:17
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 269 Dr. Troglodyte 15-Mar-19 16:41
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 284 molder 26-Feb-19 21:23
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 262 MDaines 27-Feb-19 12:06
Three Wise Men 225 MDaines 02-Mar-19 15:31
Re: Three Wise Men 230 Thanos5150 02-Mar-19 17:05
Harran and the Sabians 247 MDaines 03-Mar-19 08:33
Re: Harran and the Sabians 265 Thanos5150 03-Mar-19 16:40
Re: Harran and the Sabians 247 MDaines 03-Mar-19 19:24
Re: Harran and the Sabians 214 Thanos5150 06-Mar-19 01:50
Re: Harran and the Sabians 218 MDaines 06-Mar-19 08:22
Re: Harran and the Sabians 206 Thanos5150 07-Mar-19 02:09
Re: Harran and the Sabians 233 MDaines 07-Mar-19 08:20
On the subject of Ebla and the Feather of Truth 226 MDaines 08-Mar-19 08:57
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 269 Broker 14-Mar-19 03:25
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 216 MDaines 17-Mar-19 09:11
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 227 SandyJesse 18-Apr-19 04:33
Celestial navigation and the ship 198 MDaines 23-Apr-19 07:21
Re: Celestial navigation and the ship 206 SandyJesse 25-Apr-19 01:50
Re: Celestial navigation and the ship 206 SandyJesse 30-Apr-19 05:16
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 183 seasmith 03-May-19 22:24
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 175 MDaines 04-May-19 08:28
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 170 seasmith 05-May-19 01:39
BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 193 MDaines 09-May-19 09:46
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 177 SandyJesse 12-May-19 09:58
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 164 MDaines 12-May-19 10:22
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 158 SandyJesse 14-May-19 05:21
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 153 MDaines 14-May-19 07:46
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 171 SandyJesse 16-May-19 03:19
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 151 drew 15-May-19 01:21
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 140 Barbelo 15-May-19 10:48
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 175 drew 15-May-19 23:59
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 153 Barbelo 16-May-19 01:45
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 119 drew 18-Jun-19 02:15
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 118 Barbelo 18-Jun-19 02:43
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 156 hendrik dirker 18-Jun-19 06:59
movement of Sun along horizon 128 hendrik dirker 19-Jun-19 16:23
Solstice & the epoch1250 BC 235 hendrik dirker 20-Jun-19 07:02
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 149 MDaines 15-May-19 11:00
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 165 Horatech 15-May-19 12:10
To Easter Island? 158 MDaines 15-May-19 18:10
Re: To Easter Island? 158 Horatech 16-May-19 06:56
Re: To Easter Island? 151 Horatech 16-May-19 23:48
Re: To Easter Island? 169 Horatech 17-May-19 06:25
Re: To Easter Island? 131 Barbelo 17-May-19 10:53
Re: To Easter Island? 167 MDaines 17-May-19 11:41
What A Shame 146 Barbelo 17-May-19 21:14
Re: What A Shame 163 MDaines 18-May-19 07:57
Great Circles and Small Circles 152 Dr. Troglodyte 18-May-19 17:34
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 178 MDaines 18-May-19 19:09
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 151 Dr. Troglodyte 19-May-19 17:07
Going Round in Circles and then to Easter Island? 182 MDaines 19-May-19 18:10
Re: Going Round in Circles and then to Easter Island? 164 Horatech 25-May-19 10:53
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 169 Horatech 20-May-19 07:33
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 150 Horatech 21-May-19 09:52
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 167 Dr. Troglodyte 21-May-19 18:30
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 192 MDaines 23-May-19 07:51
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 170 Horatech 23-May-19 10:48
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 154 MDaines 23-May-19 17:07
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 174 Horatech 24-May-19 08:12
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 197 Dr. Troglodyte 23-May-19 16:05
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 167 MDaines 23-May-19 17:05
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 177 Dr. Troglodyte 23-May-19 17:31
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 197 Horatech 27-May-19 10:30
Re: What A Shame 150 Barbelo 19-May-19 20:48
Re: To Easter Island? 146 Horatech 18-May-19 09:28
Re: To Easter Island? 132 Eddie Larry 17-May-19 15:11
Re: To Easter Island? 140 Horatech 18-May-19 14:58
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 161 drew 15-May-19 23:57
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 158 MDaines 16-May-19 06:14
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 145 drew 16-May-19 06:42
ps 138 drew 16-May-19 07:22
Re: ps 132 Barbelo 16-May-19 11:11
Re: ps 151 MDaines 16-May-19 12:10
Re: ps 171 Thanos5150 16-May-19 16:06
Re: ps 170 Barbelo 16-May-19 21:00
Sometimes I go the long way round… 186 drew 17-May-19 00:59


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