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MDaines Wrote:
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> Thanos, you are the one who began the quibbling
> here,

In response to this from you:
Quote

But we know that there are ancient accounts of a connection between Harran and Egypt, through Hermes who is understood to be Thoth and the prophet of the Sabians. The Sabians were scattered at some point and no doubt their writings with them. Who knows where they originated?


What I "began" with:
Quote

These connections are nearly 2,000yrs or more after the fact and have no relevance to Egyptian history prior to these times. The relationship with Harran, for example, was established in the 7th century BC when the Assyrians invaded and conquered Egypt. Harran itself was not even founded until the end of the 3rd millennium. The poorly documented Sabians, mostly from less than credible Arab accounts, are from AD times and the connection they have with Egypt is only by way of their alleged belief in some form of Hermeticism. The connection between Hermes and Thoth was made in the Ptolemaic Period and one imposed by the Greeks with no historical relevance prior to its invention.

I did not realize noting a nearly 3,000yr gap between the Sabians and the 4th Dynasty was considered "quibbling".

The "quibbling" actually started with you regarding my comment the city of Harran was not founded until the end of the 3rd millennium:
Quote

The founding of Harran at the end of the 3rd millennium? Do you know of a text that establishes plainly that Harran did not exist earlier than that? Of course, there is the mention of Harran in Genesis, not that it helps with a timeframe. There is a town not too far away from Harran, ancient Edessa now called Sanliurfa, that has some rather lovely gardens and an ongoing tradition concerning Abraham. Apparently, it was on a par with Harran for its teachings at one time – Arabian source in AD, of course.

The Syrian Ebla tablets gave Harran as ‘a crossroads for trade in the Middle East’ at around 2300 BC. It would have been active well before that if it was already known far and wide as a crossroads. In fact, its very position along with this description would no doubt mean that Harran was in full contact with Egypt in the 3rd millennium, if not before.

> also the one who backpedalled on your very
> blunt statement of fact – yes, that is the term
> for it.

Which obviously your continued accusal of some kind of inequity on my part is nothing more than an emotional one for no other reason than it contradicts your beliefs, none of which having to do with the actual facts, my own actions least among them.

Prior to the Ebla tablets the oldest reference to Harran was c.2000BC and the city was believed to have been founded towards the end of the 3rd millennium which would be sometime between 2300-2000BC. Obviously, in context of the noted text, it stands to reason this would have occurred at least a few centuries before meaning sometime c.2300-2200BC. This should not be that hard for you to comprehend.

The Ebla tablets were discovered in the 1970's and translations offered in the decades that followed. The texts that mention Harran are dated to the last few generations before Ebla was sacked which is most commonly dated by way of the Near East "Middle chronology" of 2334-2154BC corresponding to the Akkadian Empire The "c.2300BC" is just a placeholder date rounded up for convenience with the more common date used c.2250BC which itself is rounded up from the average of the high and low of these dates which would be 2244BC. This is but one chronology used. The Low chronology is 2270-2083BC which would date these tablets on average to c.2177BC. If the Ultra-low chronology is used the average is then 2109BC. So while you are clinging to a date of "c.2300BC" it is actually c.2244BC and is only worse if other chronologies are used being c.2177BC and c.2109BC respectively.

Middle chronology is derived from fixing the two dates of the reign of Hammurabi (by way of Ammisaduqa), 1792-1750BC, and the sack of Babylon to 1595BC. The reign of Hammurabi, for example, is derived from highly contested interpretations of the the "Venus Tablet" which vary more than 200yrs where some suggest it is bunk in the first place. To make matters worse, the Venus Tablet dates to the 8th century BC and is said to be copies from earlier documents from the reign of Ammisaduqa, the 4th ruler after Hammurabi. Physicist Wayne Mitchel, for example, provides a "Venus Solution" which redates Ammisaduga's rule to 1419BC meaning Hammurabi would have first ruled c.1565BC, over 200yrs later than the accepted Middle chronology date. Meaning, this would also pull the Ebla tablets forward in time by over 200yrs as well, i.e the Ultra low chronology of c.2109BC. Oops. .

And apparently you missed the part where I said the archaeology of Harran has not yielded results prior to the first half of the 3rd millennium which would mean before c.2500BC. Hence why I am willing to revise my statement by a few centuries. And what has been found, the first remains of the city, could just as easily be at any point in the latter half including 2300BC or later. The urban expansion of the period is generally dated to c. 2600-2400BC which by all accounts the founding of the city of Harran was a part of so I defer to the greater context of the archaeology.


[snip]

Blech. No thanks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07-Mar-19 04:49 by Thanos5150.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 3372 MDaines 22-Feb-19 09:52
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 447 Thanos5150 22-Feb-19 16:15
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 316 MDaines 23-Feb-19 18:01
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 285 Thanos5150 24-Feb-19 03:06
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 306 Eddie Larry 22-Feb-19 18:39
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 286 cladking 22-Feb-19 20:12
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 275 MDaines 23-Feb-19 07:40
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 240 cladking 23-Feb-19 14:28
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 242 MDaines 23-Feb-19 15:23
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 189 cladking 02-Mar-19 16:31
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 229 Eddie Larry 23-Feb-19 16:24
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 237 Spiros 25-Feb-19 00:41
On the subject of Zechariah Sitchin 267 MDaines 25-Feb-19 14:49
Re: On the subject of Zechariah Sitchin 210 Spiros 04-Mar-19 01:11
The Exalted Sumero-Greek EN 206 MDaines 04-Mar-19 18:24
A Big Ask 274 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Feb-19 01:27
Re: A Big Ask 218 MDaines 26-Feb-19 14:25
Re: A Big Ask 265 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Feb-19 17:14
Re: A Big Ask 190 MDaines 26-Feb-19 19:30
Re: A Big Ask 210 Barbelo 26-Feb-19 20:23
Re: A Big Ask 215 MDaines 27-Feb-19 12:13
Re: A Big Ask 173 Barbelo 27-Feb-19 20:28
Re: A Big Ask 168 MDaines 28-Feb-19 14:05
Re: A Big Ask 201 Barbelo 28-Feb-19 19:59
Re: A Big Ask 205 Thanos5150 01-Mar-19 00:46
Re: A Big Ask 204 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 01:19
Re: A Big Ask 209 Thanos5150 01-Mar-19 05:20
Re: A Weird Ask 191 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 11:13
Re: A Weird Ask 194 Thanos5150 02-Mar-19 05:12
Re: A Weird Ask 202 Barbelo 02-Mar-19 07:06
Re: A Big Ask 191 MDaines 01-Mar-19 18:35
Re: A Big Ask 191 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 21:42
Re: A Big Ask 200 Thanos5150 28-Feb-19 03:33
Re: A Big Ask 183 Thanos5150 28-Feb-19 17:11
Re: A Big Ask 177 MDaines 28-Feb-19 18:08
Heliopolis 198 Barbelo 28-Feb-19 20:18
Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 239 Dr. Troglodyte 04-Mar-19 23:56
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 203 MDaines 10-Mar-19 14:41
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 203 Dr. Troglodyte 12-Mar-19 00:17
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 177 MDaines 15-Mar-19 07:17
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 212 Dr. Troglodyte 15-Mar-19 16:41
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 244 molder 26-Feb-19 21:23
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 211 MDaines 27-Feb-19 12:06
Three Wise Men 193 MDaines 02-Mar-19 15:31
Re: Three Wise Men 195 Thanos5150 02-Mar-19 17:05
Harran and the Sabians 204 MDaines 03-Mar-19 08:33
Re: Harran and the Sabians 199 Thanos5150 03-Mar-19 16:40
Re: Harran and the Sabians 215 MDaines 03-Mar-19 19:24
Re: Harran and the Sabians 168 Thanos5150 06-Mar-19 01:50
Re: Harran and the Sabians 185 MDaines 06-Mar-19 08:22
Re: Harran and the Sabians 173 Thanos5150 07-Mar-19 02:09
Re: Harran and the Sabians 185 MDaines 07-Mar-19 08:20
On the subject of Ebla and the Feather of Truth 188 MDaines 08-Mar-19 08:57
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 199 Broker 14-Mar-19 03:25
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 186 MDaines 17-Mar-19 09:11
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 170 SandyJesse 18-Apr-19 04:33
Celestial navigation and the ship 163 MDaines 23-Apr-19 07:21
Re: Celestial navigation and the ship 143 SandyJesse 25-Apr-19 01:50
Re: Celestial navigation and the ship 141 SandyJesse 30-Apr-19 05:16
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 138 seasmith 03-May-19 22:24
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 137 MDaines 04-May-19 08:28
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 134 seasmith 05-May-19 01:39
BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 142 MDaines 09-May-19 09:46
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 119 SandyJesse 12-May-19 09:58
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 128 MDaines 12-May-19 10:22
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 104 SandyJesse 14-May-19 05:21
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 114 MDaines 14-May-19 07:46
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 107 SandyJesse 16-May-19 03:19
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 115 drew 15-May-19 01:21
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 110 Barbelo 15-May-19 10:48
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 119 drew 15-May-19 23:59
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 114 Barbelo 16-May-19 01:45
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 73 drew 18-Jun-19 02:15
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 78 Barbelo 18-Jun-19 02:43
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 116 hendrik dirker 18-Jun-19 06:59
movement of Sun along horizon 84 hendrik dirker 19-Jun-19 16:23
Solstice & the epoch1250 BC 159 hendrik dirker 20-Jun-19 07:02
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 108 MDaines 15-May-19 11:00
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 128 Horatech 15-May-19 12:10
To Easter Island? 118 MDaines 15-May-19 18:10
Re: To Easter Island? 110 Horatech 16-May-19 06:56
Re: To Easter Island? 112 Horatech 16-May-19 23:48
Re: To Easter Island? 120 Horatech 17-May-19 06:25
Re: To Easter Island? 101 Barbelo 17-May-19 10:53
Re: To Easter Island? 129 MDaines 17-May-19 11:41
What A Shame 111 Barbelo 17-May-19 21:14
Re: What A Shame 120 MDaines 18-May-19 07:57
Great Circles and Small Circles 114 Dr. Troglodyte 18-May-19 17:34
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 138 MDaines 18-May-19 19:09
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 122 Dr. Troglodyte 19-May-19 17:07
Going Round in Circles and then to Easter Island? 129 MDaines 19-May-19 18:10
Re: Going Round in Circles and then to Easter Island? 113 Horatech 25-May-19 10:53
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 132 Horatech 20-May-19 07:33
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 111 Horatech 21-May-19 09:52
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 127 Dr. Troglodyte 21-May-19 18:30
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 141 MDaines 23-May-19 07:51
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 129 Horatech 23-May-19 10:48
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 109 MDaines 23-May-19 17:07
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 119 Horatech 24-May-19 08:12
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 137 Dr. Troglodyte 23-May-19 16:05
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 122 MDaines 23-May-19 17:05
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 134 Dr. Troglodyte 23-May-19 17:31
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 124 Horatech 27-May-19 10:30
Re: What A Shame 114 Barbelo 19-May-19 20:48
Re: To Easter Island? 108 Horatech 18-May-19 09:28
Re: To Easter Island? 101 Eddie Larry 17-May-19 15:11
Re: To Easter Island? 101 Horatech 18-May-19 14:58
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 117 drew 15-May-19 23:57
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 107 MDaines 16-May-19 06:14
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 106 drew 16-May-19 06:42
ps 104 drew 16-May-19 07:22
Re: ps 103 Barbelo 16-May-19 11:11
Re: ps 114 MDaines 16-May-19 12:10
Re: ps 131 Thanos5150 16-May-19 16:06
Re: ps 138 Barbelo 16-May-19 21:00
Sometimes I go the long way round… 144 drew 17-May-19 00:59


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