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MDaines Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanos, you are the one who began the quibbling
> here,

In response to this from you:
Quote

But we know that there are ancient accounts of a connection between Harran and Egypt, through Hermes who is understood to be Thoth and the prophet of the Sabians. The Sabians were scattered at some point and no doubt their writings with them. Who knows where they originated?


What I "began" with:
Quote

These connections are nearly 2,000yrs or more after the fact and have no relevance to Egyptian history prior to these times. The relationship with Harran, for example, was established in the 7th century BC when the Assyrians invaded and conquered Egypt. Harran itself was not even founded until the end of the 3rd millennium. The poorly documented Sabians, mostly from less than credible Arab accounts, are from AD times and the connection they have with Egypt is only by way of their alleged belief in some form of Hermeticism. The connection between Hermes and Thoth was made in the Ptolemaic Period and one imposed by the Greeks with no historical relevance prior to its invention.

I did not realize noting a nearly 3,000yr gap between the Sabians and the 4th Dynasty was considered "quibbling".

The "quibbling" actually started with you regarding my comment the city of Harran was not founded until the end of the 3rd millennium:
Quote

The founding of Harran at the end of the 3rd millennium? Do you know of a text that establishes plainly that Harran did not exist earlier than that? Of course, there is the mention of Harran in Genesis, not that it helps with a timeframe. There is a town not too far away from Harran, ancient Edessa now called Sanliurfa, that has some rather lovely gardens and an ongoing tradition concerning Abraham. Apparently, it was on a par with Harran for its teachings at one time – Arabian source in AD, of course.

The Syrian Ebla tablets gave Harran as ‘a crossroads for trade in the Middle East’ at around 2300 BC. It would have been active well before that if it was already known far and wide as a crossroads. In fact, its very position along with this description would no doubt mean that Harran was in full contact with Egypt in the 3rd millennium, if not before.

> also the one who backpedalled on your very
> blunt statement of fact – yes, that is the term
> for it.

Which obviously your continued accusal of some kind of inequity on my part is nothing more than an emotional one for no other reason than it contradicts your beliefs, none of which having to do with the actual facts, my own actions least among them.

Prior to the Ebla tablets the oldest reference to Harran was c.2000BC and the city was believed to have been founded towards the end of the 3rd millennium which would be sometime between 2300-2000BC. Obviously, in context of the noted text, it stands to reason this would have occurred at least a few centuries before meaning sometime c.2300-2200BC. This should not be that hard for you to comprehend.

The Ebla tablets were discovered in the 1970's and translations offered in the decades that followed. The texts that mention Harran are dated to the last few generations before Ebla was sacked which is most commonly dated by way of the Near East "Middle chronology" of 2334-2154BC corresponding to the Akkadian Empire The "c.2300BC" is just a placeholder date rounded up for convenience with the more common date used c.2250BC which itself is rounded up from the average of the high and low of these dates which would be 2244BC. This is but one chronology used. The Low chronology is 2270-2083BC which would date these tablets on average to c.2177BC. If the Ultra-low chronology is used the average is then 2109BC. So while you are clinging to a date of "c.2300BC" it is actually c.2244BC and is only worse if other chronologies are used being c.2177BC and c.2109BC respectively.

Middle chronology is derived from fixing the two dates of the reign of Hammurabi (by way of Ammisaduqa), 1792-1750BC, and the sack of Babylon to 1595BC. The reign of Hammurabi, for example, is derived from highly contested interpretations of the the "Venus Tablet" which vary more than 200yrs where some suggest it is bunk in the first place. To make matters worse, the Venus Tablet dates to the 8th century BC and is said to be copies from earlier documents from the reign of Ammisaduqa, the 4th ruler after Hammurabi. Physicist Wayne Mitchel, for example, provides a "Venus Solution" which redates Ammisaduga's rule to 1419BC meaning Hammurabi would have first ruled c.1565BC, over 200yrs later than the accepted Middle chronology date. Meaning, this would also pull the Ebla tablets forward in time by over 200yrs as well, i.e the Ultra low chronology of c.2109BC. Oops. .

And apparently you missed the part where I said the archaeology of Harran has not yielded results prior to the first half of the 3rd millennium which would mean before c.2500BC. Hence why I am willing to revise my statement by a few centuries. And what has been found, the first remains of the city, could just as easily be at any point in the latter half including 2300BC or later. The urban expansion of the period is generally dated to c. 2600-2400BC which by all accounts the founding of the city of Harran was a part of so I defer to the greater context of the archaeology.


[snip]

Blech. No thanks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07-Mar-19 04:49 by Thanos5150.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 3762 MDaines 22-Feb-19 09:52
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 645 Thanos5150 22-Feb-19 16:15
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 490 MDaines 23-Feb-19 18:01
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 485 Thanos5150 24-Feb-19 03:06
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 458 Eddie Larry 22-Feb-19 18:39
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 488 cladking 22-Feb-19 20:12
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 466 MDaines 23-Feb-19 07:40
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 409 cladking 23-Feb-19 14:28
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 430 MDaines 23-Feb-19 15:23
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 367 cladking 02-Mar-19 16:31
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 398 Eddie Larry 23-Feb-19 16:24
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 405 Spiros 25-Feb-19 00:41
On the subject of Zechariah Sitchin 464 MDaines 25-Feb-19 14:49
Re: On the subject of Zechariah Sitchin 375 Spiros 04-Mar-19 01:11
The Exalted Sumero-Greek EN 384 MDaines 04-Mar-19 18:24
A Big Ask 461 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Feb-19 01:27
Re: A Big Ask 371 MDaines 26-Feb-19 14:25
Re: A Big Ask 468 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Feb-19 17:14
Re: A Big Ask 359 MDaines 26-Feb-19 19:30
Re: A Big Ask 362 Barbelo 26-Feb-19 20:23
Re: A Big Ask 377 MDaines 27-Feb-19 12:13
Re: A Big Ask 314 Barbelo 27-Feb-19 20:28
Re: A Big Ask 325 MDaines 28-Feb-19 14:05
Re: A Big Ask 349 Barbelo 28-Feb-19 19:59
Re: A Big Ask 391 Thanos5150 01-Mar-19 00:46
Re: A Big Ask 362 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 01:19
Re: A Big Ask 400 Thanos5150 01-Mar-19 05:20
Re: A Weird Ask 396 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 11:13
Re: A Weird Ask 422 Thanos5150 02-Mar-19 05:12
Re: A Weird Ask 412 Barbelo 02-Mar-19 07:06
Re: A Big Ask 351 MDaines 01-Mar-19 18:35
Re: A Big Ask 345 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 21:42
Re: A Big Ask 378 Thanos5150 28-Feb-19 03:33
Re: A Big Ask 357 Thanos5150 28-Feb-19 17:11
Re: A Big Ask 351 MDaines 28-Feb-19 18:08
Heliopolis 367 Barbelo 28-Feb-19 20:18
Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 440 Dr. Troglodyte 04-Mar-19 23:56
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 383 MDaines 10-Mar-19 14:41
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 376 Dr. Troglodyte 12-Mar-19 00:17
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 334 MDaines 15-Mar-19 07:17
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 428 Dr. Troglodyte 15-Mar-19 16:41
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 399 molder 26-Feb-19 21:23
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 395 MDaines 27-Feb-19 12:06
Three Wise Men 346 MDaines 02-Mar-19 15:31
Re: Three Wise Men 358 Thanos5150 02-Mar-19 17:05
Harran and the Sabians 431 MDaines 03-Mar-19 08:33
Re: Harran and the Sabians 486 Thanos5150 03-Mar-19 16:40
Re: Harran and the Sabians 380 MDaines 03-Mar-19 19:24
Re: Harran and the Sabians 351 Thanos5150 06-Mar-19 01:50
Re: Harran and the Sabians 330 MDaines 06-Mar-19 08:22
Re: Harran and the Sabians 324 Thanos5150 07-Mar-19 02:09
Re: Harran and the Sabians 354 MDaines 07-Mar-19 08:20
On the subject of Ebla and the Feather of Truth 346 MDaines 08-Mar-19 08:57
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 402 Broker 14-Mar-19 03:25
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 330 MDaines 17-Mar-19 09:11
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 346 SandyJesse 18-Apr-19 04:33
Celestial navigation and the ship 323 MDaines 23-Apr-19 07:21
Re: Celestial navigation and the ship 327 SandyJesse 25-Apr-19 01:50
Re: Celestial navigation and the ship 327 SandyJesse 30-Apr-19 05:16
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 299 seasmith 03-May-19 22:24
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 282 MDaines 04-May-19 08:28
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 302 seasmith 05-May-19 01:39
BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 356 MDaines 09-May-19 09:46
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 335 SandyJesse 12-May-19 09:58
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 284 MDaines 12-May-19 10:22
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 285 SandyJesse 14-May-19 05:21
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 257 MDaines 14-May-19 07:46
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 289 SandyJesse 16-May-19 03:19
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 258 drew 15-May-19 01:21
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 244 Barbelo 15-May-19 10:48
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 289 drew 15-May-19 23:59
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 253 Barbelo 16-May-19 01:45
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 225 drew 18-Jun-19 02:15
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 223 Barbelo 18-Jun-19 02:43
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 276 hendrik dirker 18-Jun-19 06:59
movement of Sun along horizon 228 hendrik dirker 19-Jun-19 16:23
Solstice & the epoch1250 BC 436 hendrik dirker 20-Jun-19 07:02
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 249 MDaines 15-May-19 11:00
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 287 Horatech 15-May-19 12:10
To Easter Island? 264 MDaines 15-May-19 18:10
Re: To Easter Island? 263 Horatech 16-May-19 06:56
Re: To Easter Island? 265 Horatech 16-May-19 23:48
Re: To Easter Island? 302 Horatech 17-May-19 06:25
Re: To Easter Island? 246 Barbelo 17-May-19 10:53
Re: To Easter Island? 270 MDaines 17-May-19 11:41
What A Shame 258 Barbelo 17-May-19 21:14
Re: What A Shame 272 MDaines 18-May-19 07:57
Great Circles and Small Circles 485 Dr. Troglodyte 18-May-19 17:34
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 295 MDaines 18-May-19 19:09
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 258 Dr. Troglodyte 19-May-19 17:07
Going Round in Circles and then to Easter Island? 301 MDaines 19-May-19 18:10
Re: Going Round in Circles and then to Easter Island? 295 Horatech 25-May-19 10:53
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 279 Horatech 20-May-19 07:33
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 258 Horatech 21-May-19 09:52
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 318 Dr. Troglodyte 21-May-19 18:30
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 311 MDaines 23-May-19 07:51
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 289 Horatech 23-May-19 10:48
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 267 MDaines 23-May-19 17:07
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 287 Horatech 24-May-19 08:12
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 302 Dr. Troglodyte 23-May-19 16:05
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 290 MDaines 23-May-19 17:05
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 314 Dr. Troglodyte 23-May-19 17:31
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 334 Horatech 27-May-19 10:30
Re: What A Shame 256 Barbelo 19-May-19 20:48
Re: To Easter Island? 264 Horatech 18-May-19 09:28
Re: To Easter Island? 232 Eddie Larry 17-May-19 15:11
Re: To Easter Island? 257 Horatech 18-May-19 14:58
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 268 drew 15-May-19 23:57
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 272 MDaines 16-May-19 06:14
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 264 drew 16-May-19 06:42
ps 234 drew 16-May-19 07:22
Re: ps 243 Barbelo 16-May-19 11:11
Re: ps 257 MDaines 16-May-19 12:10
Re: ps 286 Thanos5150 16-May-19 16:06
Re: ps 278 Barbelo 16-May-19 21:00
Sometimes I go the long way round… 299 drew 17-May-19 00:59


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