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MDaines Wrote:
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> The Mercer quote was found on sacredtexts.com.
> I’ll leave you all to the apparently huge task
> of clarifying the groundwork that led to
> transliterating Egyptian hieroglyphs into the
> current understanding of them. If I thought there
> was a straight and simple answer out there
> somewhere, I might ask why there is such certainty
> that the images represented sounds that could be
> linked to an alphabet rather than entire words.
> I’m curious but the earliest Sumerian symbols
> (pre-cuneiform) are my subject, so I’ll leave it
> at that. Note that I don’t refer to them as
> proto-cuneiform because this is the study of a
> pre-existing symbolic (pictographic) language that
> degenerated into abstraction (cuneiform), not the
> usual understanding of it as the beginning of
> intelligent communication - that led to our
> current sad state of bickering, obfuscation and
> misinterpretation.
> I wish you good progress!
> Madeleine

Hello Madeleine,

"I might ask why there is such certainty
> that the images represented sounds that could be
> linked to an alphabet rather than entire words."

You are absolutely correct and this is not the case. The images represent both sounds and words and that is what Champollion discovered. I posted an example on my thread on Gardiner F31 and how he discovered that. The upshot is that as far as the current model of understanding goes, an Upper Egyptian phonetic script fused with a Lower Egyptian pictographic script upon unification in 3000 BC. Some of the pictographs were adopted others were phased out by the time of Den in the First Dynasty (Helck). So there is a phonetic alphabet, phonograms, and there are logograms. The logograms act both as words and can also be determinatives, context symbols. This may give you some added perspective on the lioness-bent-rod symbol. That is one of those examples, where no phonetic assignment has ever been discovered. The symbol was inappropriately, so we think, co-mingled with the mooring post symbols. You can obviously disagree with out interpretation of the meaning. Helck thought this is one of those remnants from the Buto linguistic zone and that language may, after all, have proto-cuneiform Mesopotamian or Levantine origins. Excavation in Lower Egypt will hopefully reveal what may be hidden under thousands of years of mud.


Addendum: More accurately, I should have written "ideograms" instead of "logograms". Ideograms, the broader functional category term, in Egyptian can either complete words, in which they are also logograms, or they can be determinatives, context symbols in Egyptian. You have a similar siutation in Lewian script, the original Hittite hieroglyphic language before cuneiform entered that zone.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01-Dec-18 16:02 by Manu.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 883 Duketown 30-Nov-18 12:46
Mod Note > Topic Relocated/Retitled 188 Dr. Troglodyte 30-Nov-18 16:35
Mod Note > ETA Etiquette 179 Dr. Troglodyte 30-Nov-18 16:40
Re: Jean-François Champollion's "Opening Speech…” 236 Duketown 30-Nov-18 16:46
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 263 MDaines 01-Dec-18 08:55
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 220 cladking 01-Dec-18 14:59
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 233 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 15:04
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 210 cladking 01-Dec-18 15:11
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 217 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 15:15
Dream the Imparsible Dream. 216 cladking 02-Dec-18 15:01
Re: Dream the Imparsible Dream. 221 Martin Stower 02-Dec-18 16:49
Re: Dream the Imparsible Dream. 151 cladking 02-Dec-18 19:45
Re: Dream the Imparsible Dream. 170 Martin Stower 02-Dec-18 19:51
Re: Dream the Imparsible Dream. 270 cladking 02-Dec-18 20:07
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 240 Manu 01-Dec-18 15:38
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 240 Duketown 01-Dec-18 16:03
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 216 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 16:11
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 250 Manu 01-Dec-18 16:18
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 245 Duketown 01-Dec-18 16:29
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 205 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 17:05
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 166 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 17:33
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 229 Duketown 01-Dec-18 17:47
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 204 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 18:44
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 244 Duketown 01-Dec-18 18:58
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 189 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 19:07
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 240 Duketown 01-Dec-18 19:25
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 176 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 19:37
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 235 Duketown 01-Dec-18 19:52
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 166 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 20:13
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 208 Duketown 01-Dec-18 20:25
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 169 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 20:35
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 254 Duketown 01-Dec-18 20:42
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 182 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 20:47
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 223 Duketown 01-Dec-18 20:57
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 303 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 21:22
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 214 Duketown 01-Dec-18 22:23
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 203 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 22:32
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 216 cladking 01-Dec-18 22:50
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 199 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 22:56
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 221 cladking 01-Dec-18 23:11
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 259 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 23:16
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 270 Manu 01-Dec-18 18:24
Egyptian Language Crash Course 318 Manu 01-Dec-18 16:35
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 216 Duketown 01-Dec-18 15:32
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 165 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 16:15
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 239 Duketown 01-Dec-18 17:28
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 179 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 18:20
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 263 Duketown 01-Dec-18 18:30
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 256 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 18:56
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 236 Duketown 01-Dec-18 22:42


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