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Quote Specifically, plate V, upper right. There you see the "ws" scepter in association with two different orientations of the regnal year (presumably of Sneferu in this case).

"I see two upright ws sceptres (tho the lower one is somewhat curved) and these appear to be associated with what looks like the Djed pillar sign (Djedfre?). This is then followed with the year sign followed by various upright number signs"

You got it right. I wanted to alert you to this context in case you want to pursue this further. There are five symbols, "ws", "nfr", "wr", "hb", and "htp" which show up on several blocks around Giza, Dashur and Meydum and in the examples available they are sometimes associated with regnal year counts, sometimes also with month and day, but not always. Sometimes, they appear "stamped" over or next to other marks in darker red indicating that it was a later addition. So there is no sure link with a date (or any number or any other sign for that matter) and these five symbols. This was reported in 1929 by Hermann Junker and he noticed that there is a common theme to their meanings; all positive attributes suggesting to him they might be crew signs. Reading Junker I got the impression there are many inscribed blocks, more, it seems, than what we have access to in published material which are samples. Whatever you do with this, one way or another, I would mention this and then explain why you think this case is different and anachronistic. This is another interpretation from the one that the symbols denote "zero" and the numbers are deviations (see Doc. Trog's thread". In other words, my main reason for mentioning this to you was to alert you that "ws" and "nfr" symbols weren't anything unusual as part of quarry marks. It's not the presence of the symbols per se' you're after, as I see it, it's the context around them. To establish that context, and then appraise any deviation from it, is key to your argument. If the symbols can appear in isolation of any firm association, for example with different "aprw's", then whatever you think is associated, ie written together in the same instance, could rather be from a different inscription instances. So you may have to emphasize that you believe, on the contrary, there is a context and say why. Consider that these five symbols could be nothing but a final quality mark of pride. It is also possible that Junker was wrong and there is no common theme to them, but there seems to be no rhyme or reason around them. You beg to differ I take it.

I understand that you wonder if the inscriptions on the rafters might be fakes. Your base assumption is there is a typical context to these symbols, i.e. they must appear together with something else. That something else is a number in Campbell's chamber (and in some of the quarry marks elsewhere as well) and you have concluded that number and symbol belong together which I also wonder, but am not sure yet they do. This is a key assumption you need to define first based on all the samples available. Assuming that symbol and number are a unit and were inscribed at the same instance, you are then wondering if the numerals are written in a way inconsistent with what would be typical for the Old Kingdom under the assumption that they were inscribed together with "ws" or "nfr". In the examples shown, the long axis of "ws" and the year/month numerals upright-align as cardinals, while the day numerals appear sideways as ordinals. In Campbell's chamber the numerals do not align with "ws" and "nfr". You are debating why they appear as ordinal numbers (sideways) when they should be cardinal (upright) and aligned with "ws" and "nfr". In a hypothetical fraud scenario, the forger didn't know the difference, and so he oriented them in this way, while in "Operations" it is written upright, as it should appear, if they were cattle counts or regnal years, or cubits of measurement let's say. Your litmus test was to ask for another example of a number written in the ordinal way which is unrelated to a date and which would prove that either way was ok in the OK.

This is what you're wondering, right? I hope I stated that correctly.

Let me isolate the key phrase:

"when they should be cardinal (upright) and aligned with "ws" and "nfr"

Why should they? That's the essential burden of your proof as I see and I am looking forward to your findings when you publish it.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 2247 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 11:16
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 355 Barbelo 13-Feb-18 11:29
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 332 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 11:56
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 365 Scott Creighton 13-Feb-18 12:55
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 349 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 17:09
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 331 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 17:41
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 300 M. J. Thomas 13-Feb-18 17:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 285 M. J. Thomas 13-Feb-18 17:53
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 297 M. J. Thomas 13-Feb-18 17:58
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 277 R Avry Wilson 13-Feb-18 18:16
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 280 M. J. Thomas 13-Feb-18 21:04
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 298 Scott Creighton 13-Feb-18 21:22
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 287 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 22:37
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 291 R Avry Wilson 13-Feb-18 23:44
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 277 Merrell 14-Feb-18 08:31
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 256 R Avry Wilson 14-Feb-18 17:52
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 213 Martin Stower 18-Jul-18 14:26
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 263 R Avry Wilson 13-Feb-18 21:23
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 261 M. J. Thomas 14-Feb-18 01:53
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 250 sfbey 14-Feb-18 02:52
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 261 R Avry Wilson 14-Feb-18 03:12
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 247 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 10:39
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 265 M. J. Thomas 14-Feb-18 11:16
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 238 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 22:34
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 257 M. J. Thomas 13-Feb-18 17:57
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 292 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 18:20
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 310 Scott Creighton 13-Feb-18 19:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 285 Morten 13-Feb-18 22:01
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 261 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 22:31
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 248 Morten 13-Feb-18 22:38
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 303 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 22:24
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 261 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 12:28
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 277 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 14:50
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 240 cladking 14-Feb-18 15:31
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 275 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 16:05
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 227 cladking 14-Feb-18 16:36
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 239 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 16:40
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 261 Origyptian 14-Feb-18 16:46
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 246 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 16:58
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 234 Origyptian 14-Feb-18 17:11
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 250 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 17:15
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 253 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 17:29
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 271 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 17:38
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 225 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 18:11
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 224 Morten 14-Feb-18 18:13
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 289 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 18:41
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 275 Morten 14-Feb-18 18:57
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 211 Martin Stower 16-Jun-18 09:07
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 243 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 17:24
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 234 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 17:33
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 232 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 18:09
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 242 R Avry Wilson 14-Feb-18 18:17
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 249 Morten 14-Feb-18 16:07
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 241 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 16:35
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 241 Morten 14-Feb-18 18:01
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 252 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 18:51
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 239 Origyptian 14-Feb-18 19:02
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 238 R Avry Wilson 14-Feb-18 19:02
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 238 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 19:13
Agree. n/t 223 Morten 14-Feb-18 19:03
Re: Agree. n/t 233 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 19:47
Linen list 235 Morten 14-Feb-18 20:08
Re: Linen list 243 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 22:43
Re: Linen list 225 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 22:59
Re: Linen list 230 Morten 14-Feb-18 23:09
Re: Linen list 231 Morten 15-Feb-18 10:54
Re: Linen list 263 Origyptian 15-Feb-18 15:08
Re: Linen list 210 Morten 15-Feb-18 19:15
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 268 Manu 07-Apr-18 02:46
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 281 Scott Creighton 07-Apr-18 15:32
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 279 Manu 07-Apr-18 19:26
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 301 Martin Stower 03-May-18 21:57
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 265 Corpuscles 13-Feb-18 21:37
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 277 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 22:54
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 241 Corpuscles 13-Feb-18 23:55
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 249 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 00:19
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 258 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 00:47
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 269 Corpuscles 14-Feb-18 01:01
I Know Someone Who May Be Able To Help 255 Barbelo 14-Feb-18 04:07
Re: I Know Someone Who May Be Able To Help 264 Corpuscles 14-Feb-18 06:31
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 251 eyeofhorus33 14-Feb-18 18:53
This book might help ? 255 sfbey 14-Feb-18 18:20
Re: This book might help ? 256 Morten 14-Feb-18 18:36
Re: This book might help ? 240 sfbey 14-Feb-18 18:47
Re: This book might help ? 252 Warwick 14-Feb-18 19:16
Re: This book might help ? 237 sfbey 14-Feb-18 20:14
Re: This book might help ? 236 Warwick 14-Feb-18 20:40
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 310 Morten 14-Feb-18 23:46
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 253 sfbey 15-Feb-18 02:29
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 267 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 10:01
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 240 Morten 15-Feb-18 10:47
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 244 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 11:12
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 237 Morten 15-Feb-18 12:11
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 257 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 12:28
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 247 Morten 15-Feb-18 12:59
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 228 Morten 15-Feb-18 17:09
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 264 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 17:23
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 227 Morten 15-Feb-18 17:39
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 236 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 17:58
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 236 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 18:29
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 226 Morten 15-Feb-18 18:53
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 237 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 18:27
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 224 Morten 15-Feb-18 18:46
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 261 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 18:04
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 242 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 18:17
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 207 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 18:23
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 330 Martin Stower 18-Feb-18 23:33
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 235 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 11:33
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 232 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 18:13
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 219 Warwick 15-Feb-18 18:32
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 240 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 20:20
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 259 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 18:40
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 260 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 20:08
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 294 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 20:26
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 260 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 15:21
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 243 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 16:24
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 246 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 16:32
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 244 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 16:36
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 230 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 16:41
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 235 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 16:46
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 259 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 17:16
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 224 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 17:27
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 206 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 18:17
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 251 eyeofhorus33 15-Feb-18 18:25
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 216 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 18:52
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 241 eyeofhorus33 15-Feb-18 19:03
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 299 eyeofhorus33 15-Feb-18 19:01
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 235 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 19:15
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 238 eyeofhorus33 15-Feb-18 19:36
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 237 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 19:38
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 243 sfbey 15-Feb-18 19:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 243 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 20:25
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 249 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 20:30
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 241 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 20:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 236 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:06
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 236 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 20:38
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 241 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 20:56
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 220 Morten 15-Feb-18 21:09
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 251 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:19
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 216 Morten 15-Feb-18 21:32
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 221 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:34
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 227 Morten 15-Feb-18 21:42
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 225 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:53
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 219 Morten 15-Feb-18 21:58
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 231 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 22:06
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 245 sfbey 16-Feb-18 00:03
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 277 Morten 16-Feb-18 06:47
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 237 Scott Creighton 16-Feb-18 11:05
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 254 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 11:21
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 240 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 220 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:47
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 231 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:34
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 227 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:17
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 195 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:24
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 198 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:39
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 222 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 250 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:59
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 295 Scott Creighton 27-Feb-18 11:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 295 Martin Stower 27-Feb-18 14:33
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 263 Scott Creighton 27-Feb-18 15:26
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 259 Martin Stower 27-Feb-18 16:05
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 251 Scott Creighton 27-Feb-18 16:12
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 256 Martin Stower 27-Feb-18 16:25
Curiouser and curiouser 301 Warwick 27-Feb-18 18:01
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 226 Corpuscles 15-Feb-18 21:47
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 247 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 22:13
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 219 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 20:26
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 236 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 20:39
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 246 Spiros 16-Feb-18 09:32
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 216 Spiros 16-Feb-18 11:38
Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 282 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 14:19
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 241 Morten 16-Feb-18 14:52
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 221 Morten 16-Feb-18 14:55
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 227 sfbey 16-Feb-18 14:59
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 258 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 15:13
Thank you n/t 304 Morten 16-Feb-18 15:53
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 246 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 15:00
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 226 Morten 16-Feb-18 15:25
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 234 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 15:29
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 229 sfbey 16-Feb-18 15:05
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 239 sfbey 16-Feb-18 15:12
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 248 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 15:18
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 226 Morten 16-Feb-18 15:51


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