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Quote Specifically, plate V, upper right. There you see the "ws" scepter in association with two different orientations of the regnal year (presumably of Sneferu in this case).

"I see two upright ws sceptres (tho the lower one is somewhat curved) and these appear to be associated with what looks like the Djed pillar sign (Djedfre?). This is then followed with the year sign followed by various upright number signs"

You got it right. I wanted to alert you to this context in case you want to pursue this further. There are five symbols, "ws", "nfr", "wr", "hb", and "htp" which show up on several blocks around Giza, Dashur and Meydum and in the examples available they are sometimes associated with regnal year counts, sometimes also with month and day, but not always. Sometimes, they appear "stamped" over or next to other marks in darker red indicating that it was a later addition. So there is no sure link with a date (or any number or any other sign for that matter) and these five symbols. This was reported in 1929 by Hermann Junker and he noticed that there is a common theme to their meanings; all positive attributes suggesting to him they might be crew signs. Reading Junker I got the impression there are many inscribed blocks, more, it seems, than what we have access to in published material which are samples. Whatever you do with this, one way or another, I would mention this and then explain why you think this case is different and anachronistic. This is another interpretation from the one that the symbols denote "zero" and the numbers are deviations (see Doc. Trog's thread". In other words, my main reason for mentioning this to you was to alert you that "ws" and "nfr" symbols weren't anything unusual as part of quarry marks. It's not the presence of the symbols per se' you're after, as I see it, it's the context around them. To establish that context, and then appraise any deviation from it, is key to your argument. If the symbols can appear in isolation of any firm association, for example with different "aprw's", then whatever you think is associated, ie written together in the same instance, could rather be from a different inscription instances. So you may have to emphasize that you believe, on the contrary, there is a context and say why. Consider that these five symbols could be nothing but a final quality mark of pride. It is also possible that Junker was wrong and there is no common theme to them, but there seems to be no rhyme or reason around them. You beg to differ I take it.

I understand that you wonder if the inscriptions on the rafters might be fakes. Your base assumption is there is a typical context to these symbols, i.e. they must appear together with something else. That something else is a number in Campbell's chamber (and in some of the quarry marks elsewhere as well) and you have concluded that number and symbol belong together which I also wonder, but am not sure yet they do. This is a key assumption you need to define first based on all the samples available. Assuming that symbol and number are a unit and were inscribed at the same instance, you are then wondering if the numerals are written in a way inconsistent with what would be typical for the Old Kingdom under the assumption that they were inscribed together with "ws" or "nfr". In the examples shown, the long axis of "ws" and the year/month numerals upright-align as cardinals, while the day numerals appear sideways as ordinals. In Campbell's chamber the numerals do not align with "ws" and "nfr". You are debating why they appear as ordinal numbers (sideways) when they should be cardinal (upright) and aligned with "ws" and "nfr". In a hypothetical fraud scenario, the forger didn't know the difference, and so he oriented them in this way, while in "Operations" it is written upright, as it should appear, if they were cattle counts or regnal years, or cubits of measurement let's say. Your litmus test was to ask for another example of a number written in the ordinal way which is unrelated to a date and which would prove that either way was ok in the OK.

This is what you're wondering, right? I hope I stated that correctly.

Let me isolate the key phrase:

"when they should be cardinal (upright) and aligned with "ws" and "nfr"

Why should they? That's the essential burden of your proof as I see and I am looking forward to your findings when you publish it.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 2070 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 11:16
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 298 Barbelo 13-Feb-18 11:29
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 268 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 11:56
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 299 Scott Creighton 13-Feb-18 12:55
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 289 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 17:09
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 265 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 17:41
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 237 M. J. Thomas 13-Feb-18 17:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 229 M. J. Thomas 13-Feb-18 17:53
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 234 M. J. Thomas 13-Feb-18 17:58
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 226 R Avry Wilson 13-Feb-18 18:16
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 220 M. J. Thomas 13-Feb-18 21:04
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 241 Scott Creighton 13-Feb-18 21:22
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 227 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 22:37
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 228 R Avry Wilson 13-Feb-18 23:44
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 216 Merrell 14-Feb-18 08:31
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 193 R Avry Wilson 14-Feb-18 17:52
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 149 Martin Stower 18-Jul-18 14:26
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 203 R Avry Wilson 13-Feb-18 21:23
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 199 M. J. Thomas 14-Feb-18 01:53
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 198 sfbey 14-Feb-18 02:52
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 202 R Avry Wilson 14-Feb-18 03:12
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 191 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 10:39
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 202 M. J. Thomas 14-Feb-18 11:16
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 180 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 22:34
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 200 M. J. Thomas 13-Feb-18 17:57
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 237 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 18:20
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 249 Scott Creighton 13-Feb-18 19:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 226 Morten 13-Feb-18 22:01
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 203 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 22:31
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 189 Morten 13-Feb-18 22:38
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 235 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 22:24
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 200 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 12:28
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 214 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 14:50
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 179 cladking 14-Feb-18 15:31
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 214 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 16:05
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 169 cladking 14-Feb-18 16:36
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 179 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 16:40
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 197 Origyptian 14-Feb-18 16:46
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 184 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 16:58
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 179 Origyptian 14-Feb-18 17:11
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 188 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 17:15
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 192 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 17:29
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 200 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 17:38
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 172 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 18:11
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 170 Morten 14-Feb-18 18:13
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 232 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 18:41
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 221 Morten 14-Feb-18 18:57
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 152 Martin Stower 16-Jun-18 09:07
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 185 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 17:24
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 175 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 17:33
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 175 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 18:09
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 185 R Avry Wilson 14-Feb-18 18:17
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 191 Morten 14-Feb-18 16:07
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 188 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 16:35
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 182 Morten 14-Feb-18 18:01
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 196 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 18:51
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 178 Origyptian 14-Feb-18 19:02
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 180 R Avry Wilson 14-Feb-18 19:02
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 181 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 19:13
Agree. n/t 172 Morten 14-Feb-18 19:03
Re: Agree. n/t 177 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 19:47
Linen list 176 Morten 14-Feb-18 20:08
Re: Linen list 188 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 22:43
Re: Linen list 171 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 22:59
Re: Linen list 171 Morten 14-Feb-18 23:09
Re: Linen list 176 Morten 15-Feb-18 10:54
Re: Linen list 189 Origyptian 15-Feb-18 15:08
Re: Linen list 156 Morten 15-Feb-18 19:15
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 206 Manu 07-Apr-18 02:46
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 217 Scott Creighton 07-Apr-18 15:32
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 220 Manu 07-Apr-18 19:26
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 239 Martin Stower 03-May-18 21:57
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 208 Corpuscles 13-Feb-18 21:37
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 217 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 22:54
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 185 Corpuscles 13-Feb-18 23:55
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 189 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 00:19
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 201 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 00:47
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 209 Corpuscles 14-Feb-18 01:01
I Know Someone Who May Be Able To Help 202 Barbelo 14-Feb-18 04:07
Re: I Know Someone Who May Be Able To Help 207 Corpuscles 14-Feb-18 06:31
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 189 eyeofhorus33 14-Feb-18 18:53
This book might help ? 193 sfbey 14-Feb-18 18:20
Re: This book might help ? 193 Morten 14-Feb-18 18:36
Re: This book might help ? 183 sfbey 14-Feb-18 18:47
Re: This book might help ? 193 Warwick 14-Feb-18 19:16
Re: This book might help ? 180 sfbey 14-Feb-18 20:14
Re: This book might help ? 174 Warwick 14-Feb-18 20:40
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 244 Morten 14-Feb-18 23:46
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 193 sfbey 15-Feb-18 02:29
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 204 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 10:01
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 179 Morten 15-Feb-18 10:47
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 187 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 11:12
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 181 Morten 15-Feb-18 12:11
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 198 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 12:28
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 183 Morten 15-Feb-18 12:59
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 168 Morten 15-Feb-18 17:09
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 203 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 17:23
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 169 Morten 15-Feb-18 17:39
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 179 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 17:58
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 178 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 18:29
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 171 Morten 15-Feb-18 18:53
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 176 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 18:27
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 168 Morten 15-Feb-18 18:46
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 200 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 18:04
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 185 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 18:17
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 153 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 18:23
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 262 Martin Stower 18-Feb-18 23:33
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 169 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 11:33
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 174 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 18:13
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 161 Warwick 15-Feb-18 18:32
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 177 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 20:20
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 198 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 18:40
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 192 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 20:08
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 233 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 20:26
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 196 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 15:21
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 183 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 16:24
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 189 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 16:32
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 179 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 16:36
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 172 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 16:41
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 175 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 16:46
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 196 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 17:16
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 170 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 17:27
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 152 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 18:17
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 188 eyeofhorus33 15-Feb-18 18:25
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 153 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 18:52
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 182 eyeofhorus33 15-Feb-18 19:03
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 223 eyeofhorus33 15-Feb-18 19:01
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 181 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 19:15
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 179 eyeofhorus33 15-Feb-18 19:36
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 177 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 19:38
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 182 sfbey 15-Feb-18 19:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 180 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 20:25
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 188 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 20:30
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 182 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 20:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 179 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:06
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 177 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 20:38
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 184 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 20:56
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 164 Morten 15-Feb-18 21:09
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 196 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:19
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 159 Morten 15-Feb-18 21:32
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 167 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:34
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 166 Morten 15-Feb-18 21:42
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 163 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:53
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 161 Morten 15-Feb-18 21:58
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 170 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 22:06
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 188 sfbey 16-Feb-18 00:03
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 214 Morten 16-Feb-18 06:47
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 178 Scott Creighton 16-Feb-18 11:05
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 192 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 11:21
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 183 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 165 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:47
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 171 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:34
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 168 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:17
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 148 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:24
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 144 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:39
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 164 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 192 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:59
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 217 Scott Creighton 27-Feb-18 11:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 235 Martin Stower 27-Feb-18 14:33
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 196 Scott Creighton 27-Feb-18 15:26
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 203 Martin Stower 27-Feb-18 16:05
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 194 Scott Creighton 27-Feb-18 16:12
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 196 Martin Stower 27-Feb-18 16:25
Curiouser and curiouser 242 Warwick 27-Feb-18 18:01
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 174 Corpuscles 15-Feb-18 21:47
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 186 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 22:13
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 168 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 20:26
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 180 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 20:39
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 186 Spiros 16-Feb-18 09:32
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 160 Spiros 16-Feb-18 11:38
Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 226 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 14:19
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 179 Morten 16-Feb-18 14:52
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 157 Morten 16-Feb-18 14:55
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 171 sfbey 16-Feb-18 14:59
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 195 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 15:13
Thank you n/t 235 Morten 16-Feb-18 15:53
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 185 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 15:00
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 169 Morten 16-Feb-18 15:25
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 176 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 15:29
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 168 sfbey 16-Feb-18 15:05
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 187 sfbey 16-Feb-18 15:12
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 187 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 15:18
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 166 Morten 16-Feb-18 15:51


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