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For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
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charly Wrote:
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> Scott Creighton Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > charly Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Jon Ellison Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > charly Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > Jon Ellison Wrote:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----
> > > > > > charly Wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----
> > > > > > > Audrey Wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Even if every mastaba were
> originally
> > a
> > > > > tomb,
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > would that show that the pyramids
> > were
> > > > > tombs?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The pyramid evolved from the mastaba;
> > > > > Djoser's
> > > > > > > original mastaba evolved into a
> stepped
> > > > > mastaba
> > > > > > > and then with Sekhemkhet a square
> > > grounplan
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > used thus creating the first step
> > > pyramid.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's a neat hypothesis, now how are
> you
> > > > going
> > > > > to
> > > > > > prove it?
> > > > >
> > > > > Not a hypothesis, just a statement of
> > facts.
> > > >
> > > > Djoser's pyramid was converted from a
> > mastaba.
> > > > The great pyramids were not converted from
> a
> > > > mastaba.
> > > > The great pyramids are very unlike Djosers
> > > > pyramid.
> > > > You're confusing evolution with conversion.
> > > > Therefore the notion of pyramid by pyramid
> > > > evolution is an unproven hypothesis and not
> a
> > > fact
> > > > or proven theory.
> > > > How are you going to prove that hypothesis?
> > >
> > > If by great pyramids you mean those of the
> 4th
> > > dyn, they are just another step in pyramid
> > > evolution.
> > > The Medum pyramid complex is the link between
> > the
> > > step pyramid complex and the "true" pyramid
> > > complex.
> > > The pyramid of Medum was originally a step
> > pyramid
> > > but the other parts of the complex were
> > something
> > > new, a blueprint if you like for all that
> > followed
> > > untill the end of the OK; cult pyramid
> (first
> > one
> > > ever, but a stepped one; only one of it's
> kind
> > ),
> > > funerary chapel (evolved into temple),
> causway,
> > > valley temple.
> > > Don't forget that this step pyramid was
> > converted
> > > into a "true" pyramid.
> >
> > Some questions:
> >
> > First: Why do you think the Meidum inner
> stepped
> > 'cores' were smoothed with casing stones and
> then
> > additonal casing stones added to convert to a
> true
> > pyramid?
>
> Sneferu wanted a true pyramid, after the problems
> with the Bent the conversion at Meidum started
> etc. As you well know you can find this in most
> works about pyramids.
>
> > Second: Why do you think the core stepped
> > footprint of Meidum was constructed on solid
> > bedrock but the added casing to convert t to a
> > true pyramid was built on sand (hence why this
> > part collapsed)?
>
> Collapse occured centuries later as you probably
> know.
>
> > It strongly suggests to me that there were two
> > quite different builders involved. One who
> > understood and knew how to build a secure
> > structure i.e. on a solid foundation and one
> who
> > was quite ignorant of such. I'd be interested
> to
> > hear your view.
> >
> > SC
>
> It suggest Sneferu wanted a true pyramid at all
> costs, no need for two different builders.

Proof?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Plausible functions of the great pyramid 2231 Nemobutwhatiimagian 04-Jan-18 19:10
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 484 Nemobutwhatiimagian 04-Jan-18 19:15
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 421 Barbelo 04-Jan-18 20:29
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 260 theoferrum 11-Jan-18 21:43
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 289 Nemobutwhatiimagian 05-Jan-18 12:53
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 309 D-Archer 05-Jan-18 13:25
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 280 Nemobutwhatiimagian 05-Jan-18 14:24
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 278 Pifaaso 05-Jan-18 14:58
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 246 MBeeler 07-Jan-18 05:14
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 327 M. J. Thomas 05-Jan-18 14:47
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 337 Jon Ellison 05-Jan-18 17:47
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 249 M. J. Thomas 05-Jan-18 19:39
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 285 Jon Ellison 05-Jan-18 20:51
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 274 M. J. Thomas 05-Jan-18 22:08
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 306 Jon Ellison 05-Jan-18 22:16
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 312 M. J. Thomas 06-Jan-18 00:59
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 259 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 08:40
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 234 Nemobutwhatiimagian 06-Jan-18 19:08
Re: Function in plain sight! 303 Thunderbird 07-Jan-18 19:12
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 282 Corpuscles 05-Jan-18 19:51
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 236 cladking 05-Jan-18 20:36
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 256 Jon Ellison 05-Jan-18 21:30
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 186 Audrey 06-Jan-18 06:50
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 294 charly 06-Jan-18 11:19
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 186 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 14:04
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 194 charly 06-Jan-18 15:00
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 184 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 19:50
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 156 charly 06-Jan-18 20:55
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 197 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 21:28
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 176 charly 06-Jan-18 21:52
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 147 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 21:58
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 202 charly 06-Jan-18 22:11
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 265 Scott Creighton 06-Jan-18 21:52
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 184 charly 06-Jan-18 23:04
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 190 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 23:14
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 208 Scott Creighton 07-Jan-18 10:10
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 208 theoferrum 12-Jan-18 07:05
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 255 Martin Stower 12-Jan-18 12:04
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 183 Nemobutwhatiimagian 13-Jan-18 10:49
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 162 cladking 13-Jan-18 15:28
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 190 Martin Stower 13-Jan-18 17:17
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 169 cladking 13-Jan-18 17:51
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 248 Nemobutwhatiimagian 08-Jan-18 19:04
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 214 Scott Creighton 06-Jan-18 14:28
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 209 charly 06-Jan-18 14:49
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 230 Scott Creighton 06-Jan-18 15:29
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 180 charly 06-Jan-18 21:35
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 166 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 21:46
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 191 charly 06-Jan-18 22:04
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 146 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 22:21
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 151 charly 06-Jan-18 22:43
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 190 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 22:51
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 171 Nemobutwhatiimagian 13-Jan-18 11:13
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 229 Scott Creighton 06-Jan-18 22:07
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 242 charly 07-Jan-18 09:20
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 252 Scott Creighton 07-Jan-18 11:20
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 154 Merrell 07-Jan-18 12:18
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 191 Scott Creighton 07-Jan-18 13:23
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 219 charly 07-Jan-18 14:17
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 180 cladking 07-Jan-18 15:00
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 162 Scott Creighton 07-Jan-18 15:11
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 271 charly 07-Jan-18 15:55
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 203 Scott Creighton 07-Jan-18 16:41
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 252 Corpuscles 07-Jan-18 17:28
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 188 Scott Creighton 07-Jan-18 18:52
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 281 Martin Stower 07-Jan-18 19:27
SC deflection 222 Corpuscles 08-Jan-18 23:00
I must be doing something right, too. n/t 221 cladking 09-Jan-18 02:01
Re:Sneferu and his pyramids 282 charly 09-Jan-18 09:32
Re: Re:Sneferu and his pyramids 222 Scott Creighton 10-Jan-18 13:26
Re: SC deflection 250 Scott Creighton 09-Jan-18 15:04
Re: SC deflection 257 Martin Stower 09-Jan-18 16:59
Re: SC deflection 189 Corpuscles 09-Jan-18 23:23
Re: SC deflection 232 Scott Creighton 10-Jan-18 10:22
Re: SC deflection 201 Martin Stower 10-Jan-18 11:56
Re: SC deflection 198 cladking 10-Jan-18 14:25
Re: SC deflection 210 Martin Stower 10-Jan-18 15:47
Re: SC deflection 227 cladking 10-Jan-18 17:05
Re: SC deflection 184 Open mind 10-Jan-18 17:14
Re: SC deflection 177 cladking 10-Jan-18 17:41
Ramps? 220 Scott Creighton 11-Jan-18 10:57
Re: SC deflection 164 Martin Stower 11-Jan-18 20:46
Re: SC deflection 181 cladking 11-Jan-18 21:12
Re: SC deflection 204 Corpuscles 11-Jan-18 01:17
Re: SC deflection 207 Open mind 11-Jan-18 04:07
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 164 Martin Stower 07-Jan-18 18:40
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 215 eyeofhorus33 09-Jan-18 21:05
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 191 cladking 09-Jan-18 22:41
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 214 Corpuscles 10-Jan-18 00:31
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 157 cladking 10-Jan-18 01:02
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 158 Scott Creighton 10-Jan-18 09:47
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 243 Merrell 10-Jan-18 16:09
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 190 eyeofhorus33 10-Jan-18 17:29
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 206 Scott Creighton 11-Jan-18 11:26
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 231 Martin Stower 11-Jan-18 15:00
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 215 eyeofhorus33 11-Jan-18 18:36
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 197 cladking 11-Jan-18 18:51
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 208 Martin Stower 11-Jan-18 19:32
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 163 eyeofhorus33 11-Jan-18 20:31
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 169 cladking 11-Jan-18 20:56
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 205 Martin Stower 11-Jan-18 21:17
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 279 cladking 12-Jan-18 01:00
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 185 eyeofhorus33 12-Jan-18 18:10
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 163 cladking 12-Jan-18 19:08
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 141 eyeofhorus33 12-Jan-18 20:44
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 158 cladking 12-Jan-18 21:26
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 178 eyeofhorus33 12-Jan-18 22:33
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 178 cladking 12-Jan-18 22:55
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 174 Corpuscles 12-Jan-18 23:25
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 166 cladking 13-Jan-18 00:59
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 157 Martin Stower 13-Jan-18 01:38
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 172 Martin Stower 12-Jan-18 23:37
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 160 cladking 13-Jan-18 00:52
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 199 Martin Stower 13-Jan-18 01:26
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 183 cladking 13-Jan-18 03:50
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 184 Corpuscles 12-Jan-18 23:04
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 234 Scott Creighton 12-Jan-18 10:39
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 161 eyeofhorus33 13-Jan-18 07:45
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 233 Scott Creighton 13-Jan-18 11:31
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 177 Martin Stower 13-Jan-18 12:31
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 169 cladking 13-Jan-18 15:03
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 177 cladking 13-Jan-18 15:17
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 202 eyeofhorus33 13-Jan-18 18:29
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 198 cladking 13-Jan-18 20:00
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 154 Martin Stower 13-Jan-18 21:27
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 162 cladking 13-Jan-18 21:34
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 200 eyeofhorus33 14-Jan-18 00:00
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 190 cladking 14-Jan-18 01:27
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 228 Nemobutwhatiimagian 09-Jan-18 17:55
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 191 Martin Stower 07-Jan-18 13:39
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 218 cladking 07-Jan-18 15:12
Sam: act 3 scene 2 165 Warwick 09-Jan-18 16:58
Re: Sam: act 3 scene 2 187 cladking 09-Jan-18 20:36
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 229 charly 07-Jan-18 15:17
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 159 cladking 07-Jan-18 15:50
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 169 Scott Creighton 07-Jan-18 18:02
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 250 Thanos5150 08-Jan-18 00:02
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 250 Martin Stower 08-Jan-18 10:33
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 216 Scott Creighton 08-Jan-18 10:47
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 219 Martin Stower 08-Jan-18 11:31
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 246 charly 08-Jan-18 13:18
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 235 Martin Stower 08-Jan-18 14:35
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 253 Scott Creighton 09-Jan-18 11:33
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 179 charly 09-Jan-18 13:59
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 167 cladking 09-Jan-18 14:34
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 182 Scott Creighton 09-Jan-18 15:54
the Root of the tree 181 Warwick 09-Jan-18 17:09
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 229 charly 09-Jan-18 19:49
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 158 Thunderbird 09-Jan-18 20:24
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 174 Thanos5150 09-Jan-18 23:01
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 231 Scott Creighton 10-Jan-18 08:42
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 190 Thanos5150 08-Jan-18 21:00
Rubbish! 196 Warwick 09-Jan-18 17:23
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 223 Martin Stower 09-Jan-18 18:02
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 174 Warwick 09-Jan-18 19:03
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 190 Thanos5150 09-Jan-18 22:35
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 218 Martin Stower 10-Jan-18 18:30
just to be clear... 217 Warwick 10-Jan-18 18:40
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 153 cladking 07-Jan-18 15:08
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 209 charly 07-Jan-18 16:03
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 153 cladking 07-Jan-18 20:27
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 189 Martin Stower 07-Jan-18 12:39
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 228 Audrey 07-Jan-18 07:04
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 229 Thanos5150 06-Jan-18 18:54
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 215 cladking 05-Jan-18 21:15
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 176 Susan Doris 05-Jan-18 23:34
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 286 Susan Doris 05-Jan-18 15:03
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 237 cladking 05-Jan-18 17:32
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 248 Susan Doris 05-Jan-18 17:45
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 261 Jon Ellison 05-Jan-18 18:01
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 211 cladking 05-Jan-18 18:50
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 235 Nemobutwhatiimagian 14-Jan-18 09:26
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 192 Nemobutwhatiimagian 06-Jan-18 16:59
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 178 Barbelo 06-Jan-18 19:53
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 218 Open mind 07-Jan-18 08:25
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 218 Nemobutwhatiimagian 07-Jan-18 12:18
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 208 Jon Ellison 07-Jan-18 12:42
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 222 M. J. Thomas 07-Jan-18 16:32
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 183 Open mind 07-Jan-18 16:42
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 162 M. J. Thomas 07-Jan-18 19:23
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 209 cladking 07-Jan-18 15:31
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 180 Open mind 07-Jan-18 16:07
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 224 cladking 07-Jan-18 20:42
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 212 Martin Stower 07-Jan-18 21:32
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 130 cladking 07-Jan-18 21:50
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 213 Martin Stower 07-Jan-18 22:19
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 232 Open mind 08-Jan-18 01:59
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 233 cladking 08-Jan-18 02:46
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 165 Warwick 09-Jan-18 19:15
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 223 Anonymous User 07-Jan-18 17:35
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 197 Nemobutwhatiimagian 07-Jan-18 22:02
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 203 Jon Ellison 07-Jan-18 22:09
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 211 cladking 07-Jan-18 22:28
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 227 Nemobutwhatiimagian 07-Jan-18 18:41
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 199 Nemobutwhatiimagian 08-Jan-18 18:58
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 189 Nemobutwhatiimagian 08-Jan-18 21:16
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 172 Nemobutwhatiimagian 08-Jan-18 21:45
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 200 Open mind 09-Jan-18 21:56
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 215 Nemobutwhatiimagian 10-Jan-18 01:20
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 209 Nemobutwhatiimagian 10-Jan-18 16:40
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 198 Open mind 10-Jan-18 17:07
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 208 Anonymous User 10-Jan-18 17:20
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 214 Open mind 10-Jan-18 17:50
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 154 Open mind 10-Jan-18 18:00
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 137 Anonymous User 10-Jan-18 18:22
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 183 Open mind 10-Jan-18 18:48
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 175 Anonymous User 10-Jan-18 19:06
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 217 Open mind 10-Jan-18 19:27
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 192 Anonymous User 10-Jan-18 19:48
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 182 Nemobutwhatiimagian 13-Jan-18 11:03
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 219 Anonymous User 13-Jan-18 15:09
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 231 Warwick 10-Jan-18 18:20
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 168 cladking 10-Jan-18 21:27
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 220 Open mind 10-Jan-18 21:33
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 179 Nemobutwhatiimagian 10-Jan-18 23:59
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 249 Open mind 11-Jan-18 03:57
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 151 M. J. Thomas 11-Jan-18 19:35
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 247 Nemobutwhatiimagian 11-Jan-18 01:31
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 232 M. J. Thomas 11-Jan-18 19:48
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 216 cladking 11-Jan-18 01:41
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 195 Open mind 11-Jan-18 02:46
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 259 kborissov 23-Jan-18 00:44
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 285 kborissov 28-Jan-18 18:50


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