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Origyptian comment
"Honestly, Mike, when I do a google search for "malta cart ruts", I see few differences in texture between the tracks vs. outside the tracks. And when we get to other geographic locations such as Turkey, I see far less evidence of any activity between the tracks. So I'm not sure what you mean by "intellectually honest on this point". All I'm doing is looking at the images and reporting what I see.

For those few images that do show clear depressions between the ruts, how can you be so sure that those ruts depressions weren't created by humans walking between the ruts as faux road markers that were already ancient?

In my intellectually honest assessment, the evidence is far too inconsistent to automatically lump all ruts into indicating wheeled carts that were drawn by animals when only a minority of ruts show clear evidence of such depressions between them and it's not possible to age the ruts or those broader depressions.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting to hear your explanation of how thousands of cart runs could possibly follow exactly the same path from the very first pass along a given stretch of bedrock in order to create such sharply defined ruts. How can an animal be trained to follow such a precise path each and every time? For that matter, WHY would an animal be trained to do that? Respectfully, I would assume that your engineering background allows you to recognize the problematic nature of such deep ruts in stone with a consistent width that would cause wheels to sieze on a curved path. I cannot see how anyone that's "intellectually honest" can fathom a pragmatic scenario where such a thing would happen even once, let alone the many dozens (hundreds?) of ruts we see not only in Malta but other places on the planet."

I just said that considering only Clapham Junction it was intellectually honest to conclude that the case is inconclusive due to the local messy terrain totally eroded, with so many random bumps, holes and cracks that as you said there are "few differences in texture between the tracks vs. outside the tracks".
That's all.
Now, outside Clapham and in Malta, I said there are objectively a minority of ruts pairs with traces inside and a majority without, but they exist anyway.(See book "Cart-Ruts and their impact on the Maltese landscape, page 10).It asks question but does not allow to reject totally the solution of oxcarts, whereas in the same time it requires to imagine other solutions. Moreover in some places there are both types in the same area, with and without traces inside, so what? (same book, pages 34-35).
I do not pretend all cart ruts in the world were created by repeated passages of neolithic oxcarts. I just don't know. I just speak about a place I visited, Clapham Junction, seeming to have been a quarry, and exposing just some opinions about this place. Elswhere I admit I don't know.

And in the case of Clapham Junction, I do think that tracks were defined to optimize quarry work and were first created shallow to initiate paths, then became deeper and deeper after usage.
It seem to me possible to consider that the cutting benches I saw were not deeply cut, maybe only one layer so that after a series of blocks transported down along one track (with brake system and no oxen here), a second one was created parallel for next blocks series and so on.
At Clapham it seem to me possible to imagine that the tracks may have been used laden downhill and unladen uphill.
(Excellent overall twofold photo of Clapham Junction in same book pages 28-29, network of crossing benches and tracks is clearly visible, if not a solution for you, would you have another explanation? A neolithic racing place with random traces never reused?)

As for the impossibilty you see in creating such tracks by respecting precise repeated passages, it is exactly what youn can see on some roman tracks and this is exactly what people do when driving 4x4 on dirt tracks.

This being said, it is obvious that many tracks we see in Malta would require so large diameter wheels that they would generate important efforts of friction on the wheel rim in contact with the edges of rail in a little squeezed curves, leading to blocking and break, then accident. That is clear. This may explain why many ruts pairs may have been decomissioned when becoming too deep and replaced by new ones created parallel beside, which, in some places, could be reached from former ones when needed by communication nodes, so numerous in this island. That could be an explanation.
On the other hand, carts running once in very soft material can print a slightly too deep track with frictions in edges of wheel without preventing the rotation. Ok.

But why running so numerous carts or other system on soft muddy soil? Which activity could justify this hazardous transport? Catastrophe? Which one? When? Starting point, End point? It is relatively easy to concentrate on a specific technical explanation when you keep out of any connection from the historical context of the place. Please expose your global scenario, why so many people would run once along random paths on muddy soil in Malta and when?

Therefore the intellectual trap I can see here is to focus on only one solution that rules out all the others, leading us in an arbitrary dead end. I always try to avoid this situation and try to keep eyes and mind wide open. It is very difficult to build a set of mutually compatible solutions, but often, the truth may emerge from this state of mind.

Are you satisfied with these answers? I do hope, but I just can't say more and do not want to come in hard useless discussion blocking everyone on it's view without further exchanges. After all your view maybe better. Or mine. Who knows?

Michel Demaria (retired engineer, France)



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 29-Nov-17 19:26 by Mike D.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Clapham Junction Malta 2028 Rstevens1701 16-Oct-17 15:26
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 565 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 18:45
this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 426 Racho 16-Oct-17 22:45
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 592 Tsurugi 17-Oct-17 04:55
Not carts. 449 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 07:14
Re: Not carts. 378 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:00
Re: Not carts. 348 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 20:17
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 352 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 07:28
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 351 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 08:29
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 307 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:08
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 332 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 16:56
ships on land 333 molder 17-Oct-17 22:43
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 295 molder 18-Oct-17 12:22
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 336 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 13:00
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 317 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 17:23
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 327 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 18:26
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 319 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 19:01
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 272 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:44
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 260 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:36
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 377 molder 08-Nov-17 10:34
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 232 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 05:55
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 284 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 01:53
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 244 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:47
Black Tracks 342 Barbelo 19-Oct-17 01:59
Re: Black Tracks 342 randompHactor 19-Oct-17 02:16
Re: Black Tracks 441 Barbelo 21-Oct-17 00:20
Re: Black Tracks 235 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:51
Turkey Tracks 338 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 362 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 23:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 286 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 02:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 331 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 02:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 344 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 03:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 310 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 04:22
Re: Turkey Tracks 387 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 380 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 23:54
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 291 Jon Ellison 19-Oct-17 01:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 285 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 19:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 224 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 04:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 244 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 05:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 270 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 18:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 276 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 19:15
Re: Turkey Tracks 242 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 19:20
Re: Turkey Tracks 251 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 274 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 20:12
Re: Turkey Tracks 337 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:34
Re: Turkey Tracks 276 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 21:21
Re: Turkey Tracks 266 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:44
Re: Turkey Tracks 244 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 411 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 264 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 23:52
Re: Turkey Tracks 349 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:38
Re: Turkey Tracks 308 Jon Ellison 08-Nov-17 09:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 240 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 02:40
Re: Turkey Tracks 444 Jon Ellison 09-Nov-17 08:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 329 Tsurugi 25-Nov-17 08:10
Re: Turkey Tracks 277 Mike D 26-Nov-17 16:57
Re: Turkey Tracks 229 Jon Ellison 26-Nov-17 18:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 315 Mike D 27-Nov-17 09:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 287 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:16
Re: Turkey Tracks 257 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 21:26
Re: Turkey Tracks 341 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 253 Anonymous User 07-Nov-17 22:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 409 Mike D 25-Nov-17 13:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 267 molder 25-Nov-17 20:51
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 270 Mike D 26-Nov-17 12:46
The Diolkos 253 molder 26-Nov-17 21:36
Re: The Diolkos 238 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 301 Mike D 26-Nov-17 13:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 247 Tsurugi 27-Nov-17 09:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 264 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 278 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 11:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 304 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:27
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 263 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 18:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 254 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 243 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 11:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 276 Mike D 28-Nov-17 11:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 258 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 13:43
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 304 Mike D 28-Nov-17 14:55
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 211 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 16:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 256 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:22
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 246 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 03:16
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 363 Mike D 29-Nov-17 09:54
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 306 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 15:06
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 206 Mike D 30-Nov-17 11:25
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 239 Jon Ellison 30-Nov-17 12:41
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 211 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 13:56
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 293 Mike D 30-Nov-17 14:11
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 420 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 15:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 269 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:49
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 237 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:28
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 306 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 04:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 274 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 232 Origyptian 27-Nov-17 15:48
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 396 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 241 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 05:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 279 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 227 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:34
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 277 Mike D 29-Nov-17 18:23
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 223 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 05:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 249 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 05:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 261 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 284 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:18
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 573 Audrey 28-Nov-17 03:14
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 274 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:39
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 278 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:30
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 264 molder 28-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 511 molder 18-Nov-17 22:20
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 300 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 266 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:46
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 275 molder 30-Nov-17 05:22
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 312 Mike D 30-Nov-17 10:59


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