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Mike D Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> And after, please see my answer to Jon to clarify
> my views and state of mind:
> [url=http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?1,11
> 20291,1124920#msg-1124920]Answer to Jon
> Ellison[/url]

Thanks. I was worried, after I posted my reply above, that it might seem I was attacking you or your views. I want to stress that was not my intention. I wanted to criticize the paper a bit, mostly for what I saw as methodological problems.


> To me, even if I am not opposed to the theory of
> very, very old imprints on soft clay that turn out
> solid afterwards, I don't think it can apply to
> the case of Malta, although they must also be old,
> before catastrophes in the Mediterranean, may be
> contemporary of Atlantis, not impossible to me.

Ok. I appreciate the fact that you have been there and seen these features in person, which is vastly different from any amount of photo browsing. I haven't seen the ruts in person(yet. my plan is to win the lottery) so I can only theorize from my armchair, hah.

Mostly, this argument for me has centered on the problem of precision in rut creation. Clapham Junction, from the photos, sort of looks like the starting line of a huge off-road race: lots of basically parallel ruts in messy mud that appear to head straight off a cliff edge or some sort of precipitous drop. The ruts are heavily eroded but appear to be roughly uniform in cross section, and are generally much wider than the width of a cart wheel. These ruts, therefore, are not really precise, like some of the Maltese ruts seem to be....deep and narrow, the width of a single cart wheel(or perhaps a tiny bit wider).
To me it is these narrow ruts that seem unlikely to be anything other than ruts made in soft material that later hardened, because the precision seems to be too great to be a result of multiple cart crossings.

Again, I haven't been there so this is based on a limited perspective.

> Considering that more wet paleo climate may have
> helped the wear of tracks, I am thinking here to
> Robert Soch claims about the water erosion of
> Gizah Sphinx.

Understood. Remember tho that Schoch estimated a thousand years of torrential rains were necessary to cause the water erosion features seen in the Sphinx enclosure. Again, it is hard for me to reconcile this with the concept of the passage of carts as an erosional force.

However, in the interim since posting my reply and now, I have thought of a few possibilities I want to run by you(and anyone else who is reading this).

One possibility is that the precise ruts could maybe have been made by carts moving across stone [i]if the drivers of the carts intended for them to be made[/i] for whatever reason. If they intended ruts to form, they could maybe have paid close attention to each passage and tried to keep the wheels on the exact same path so as to cut the ruts. I'm not sure why this would be a desired outcome but I think it is much more plausible if ruts were intended than for them to have formed accidentally.

Another possibility is that, at the time of the passage of these carts, there existed atop the bare rock we now see, some amount of clay or thick mud. A single passage of a cart through this material would cut ruts into it down to the bedrock. If the material then dried and hardened, the ruts made by the first cart could constrain the passages of any other carts so that they always crossed in the same place on the limestone, eventually wearing it down. Maybe. More rain would probably mess this up however.

> Now, to answer your question: [quote="Tsurugi
> question:"]
> That said, your observations of quarry features
> around rut "hubs" is very interesting. Question:
> is there anything you noticed that definitely
> makes the quarry features and the ruts
> contemporary?
> [/quote]
> I cannot say definitely, not being a geologist,
> nor a quarry expert. But being an engineer
> familiar with technical and production questions,
> Clapham Junction looked to me a very old (stones
> wear, ground erosion) and well organised quarry.
> In the beginning it seems just to be a mess with
> random "cart ruts". And little by little you begin
> to understand the overall pattern, but it comes
> gradually.
> On the sides of the ruts areas are clear patches
> of rock extraction patterns, but they don't lie
> beside ruts and maybe are younger than ruts. Maybe
> Punic, Greek, Roman.
> But in the end I realized that in several ruts
> areas we were walking on man-made artificially
> levelled parallel strips of rocky terrain, all
> flat (and inclined), all of same limited height
> and width.
> The idea of cutting benches became pregnant. And
> then I realized that they were all crossed by
> parallel cart ruts, and the crossing angle was
> constant. It seem to me that cutting benches were
> following geological sedimentary layers to
> optimize rock quality, whereas ruts direction was
> defined to optimize a constant tracks slope.
> No evidence of course. I visited this site more as
> a tourist than as a specialist, I did not check
> every square inch of terrain, I missed a lot of
> zones. In addition, I confess I should have had
> accurate maps, google earth prints and a compass,
> or a GPS. Unfortunately, as a good tourist, I only
> had my camera, and a limited sight at man's
> height.
> Definitely, this site should be mapped to
> professionaly check if it was a quarry with
> tracks, yes or no.

Again I appreciate your eyewitness account and impressions. I don't have any argument with anything you've said here, and agree that professionals(masons and quarrymen, not archaeologists) should evaluate these sites.

Options: ReplyQuote


Subject Views Written By Posted
Clapham Junction Malta 1792 Rstevens1701 16-Oct-17 15:26
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 448 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 18:45
this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 351 Racho 16-Oct-17 22:45
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 427 Tsurugi 17-Oct-17 04:55
Not carts. 353 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 07:14
Re: Not carts. 270 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:00
Re: Not carts. 253 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 20:17
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 271 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 07:28
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 262 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 08:29
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 242 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:08
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 251 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 16:56
ships on land 250 molder 17-Oct-17 22:43
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 210 molder 18-Oct-17 12:22
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 255 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 13:00
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 225 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 17:23
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 232 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 18:26
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 241 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 19:01
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 191 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:44
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 180 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:36
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 312 molder 08-Nov-17 10:34
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 173 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 05:55
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 217 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 01:53
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 154 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:47
Black Tracks 239 Barbelo 19-Oct-17 01:59
Re: Black Tracks 252 randompHactor 19-Oct-17 02:16
Re: Black Tracks 310 Barbelo 21-Oct-17 00:20
Re: Black Tracks 173 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:51
Turkey Tracks 255 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 264 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 23:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 213 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 02:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 245 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 02:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 240 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 03:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 234 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 04:22
Re: Turkey Tracks 303 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 256 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 23:54
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 215 Jon Ellison 19-Oct-17 01:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 183 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 19:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 146 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 04:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 174 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 05:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 199 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 18:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 185 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 19:15
Re: Turkey Tracks 176 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 19:20
Re: Turkey Tracks 191 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 182 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 20:12
Re: Turkey Tracks 225 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:34
Re: Turkey Tracks 200 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 21:21
Re: Turkey Tracks 187 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:44
Re: Turkey Tracks 158 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 253 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 171 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 23:52
Re: Turkey Tracks 268 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:38
Re: Turkey Tracks 240 Jon Ellison 08-Nov-17 09:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 144 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 02:40
Re: Turkey Tracks 337 Jon Ellison 09-Nov-17 08:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 245 Tsurugi 25-Nov-17 08:10
Re: Turkey Tracks 183 Mike D 26-Nov-17 16:57
Re: Turkey Tracks 157 Jon Ellison 26-Nov-17 18:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 193 Mike D 27-Nov-17 09:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 218 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:16
Re: Turkey Tracks 166 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 21:26
Re: Turkey Tracks 260 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 171 Anonymous User 07-Nov-17 22:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 287 Mike D 25-Nov-17 13:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 199 molder 25-Nov-17 20:51
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 174 Mike D 26-Nov-17 12:46
The Diolkos 170 molder 26-Nov-17 21:36
Re: The Diolkos 169 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 202 Mike D 26-Nov-17 13:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 173 Tsurugi 27-Nov-17 09:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 180 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 200 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 11:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 169 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:27
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 151 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 18:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 168 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 149 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 11:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 199 Mike D 28-Nov-17 11:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 150 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 13:43
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 163 Mike D 28-Nov-17 14:55
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 137 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 16:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 170 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:22
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 174 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 03:16
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 269 Mike D 29-Nov-17 09:54
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 193 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 15:06
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 126 Mike D 30-Nov-17 11:25
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 139 Jon Ellison 30-Nov-17 12:41
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 149 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 13:56
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 198 Mike D 30-Nov-17 14:11
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 304 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 15:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 155 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:49
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 163 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:28
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 184 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 04:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 190 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 161 Origyptian 27-Nov-17 15:48
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 272 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 155 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 05:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 181 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 144 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:34
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 196 Mike D 29-Nov-17 18:23
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 163 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 05:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 173 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 05:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 138 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 169 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:18
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 387 Audrey 28-Nov-17 03:14
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 182 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:39
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 200 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:30
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 177 molder 28-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 392 molder 18-Nov-17 22:20
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 203 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 192 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:46
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 152 molder 30-Nov-17 05:22
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 242 Mike D 30-Nov-17 10:59


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