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Mike D Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> And after, please see my answer to Jon to clarify
> my views and state of mind:
> [url=http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?1,11
> 20291,1124920#msg-1124920]Answer to Jon
> Ellison[/url]

Thanks. I was worried, after I posted my reply above, that it might seem I was attacking you or your views. I want to stress that was not my intention. I wanted to criticize the paper a bit, mostly for what I saw as methodological problems.


> To me, even if I am not opposed to the theory of
> very, very old imprints on soft clay that turn out
> solid afterwards, I don't think it can apply to
> the case of Malta, although they must also be old,
> before catastrophes in the Mediterranean, may be
> contemporary of Atlantis, not impossible to me.

Ok. I appreciate the fact that you have been there and seen these features in person, which is vastly different from any amount of photo browsing. I haven't seen the ruts in person(yet. my plan is to win the lottery) so I can only theorize from my armchair, hah.

Mostly, this argument for me has centered on the problem of precision in rut creation. Clapham Junction, from the photos, sort of looks like the starting line of a huge off-road race: lots of basically parallel ruts in messy mud that appear to head straight off a cliff edge or some sort of precipitous drop. The ruts are heavily eroded but appear to be roughly uniform in cross section, and are generally much wider than the width of a cart wheel. These ruts, therefore, are not really precise, like some of the Maltese ruts seem to be....deep and narrow, the width of a single cart wheel(or perhaps a tiny bit wider).
To me it is these narrow ruts that seem unlikely to be anything other than ruts made in soft material that later hardened, because the precision seems to be too great to be a result of multiple cart crossings.

Again, I haven't been there so this is based on a limited perspective.

> Considering that more wet paleo climate may have
> helped the wear of tracks, I am thinking here to
> Robert Soch claims about the water erosion of
> Gizah Sphinx.

Understood. Remember tho that Schoch estimated a thousand years of torrential rains were necessary to cause the water erosion features seen in the Sphinx enclosure. Again, it is hard for me to reconcile this with the concept of the passage of carts as an erosional force.

However, in the interim since posting my reply and now, I have thought of a few possibilities I want to run by you(and anyone else who is reading this).

One possibility is that the precise ruts could maybe have been made by carts moving across stone [i]if the drivers of the carts intended for them to be made[/i] for whatever reason. If they intended ruts to form, they could maybe have paid close attention to each passage and tried to keep the wheels on the exact same path so as to cut the ruts. I'm not sure why this would be a desired outcome but I think it is much more plausible if ruts were intended than for them to have formed accidentally.

Another possibility is that, at the time of the passage of these carts, there existed atop the bare rock we now see, some amount of clay or thick mud. A single passage of a cart through this material would cut ruts into it down to the bedrock. If the material then dried and hardened, the ruts made by the first cart could constrain the passages of any other carts so that they always crossed in the same place on the limestone, eventually wearing it down. Maybe. More rain would probably mess this up however.

> Now, to answer your question: [quote="Tsurugi
> question:"]
> That said, your observations of quarry features
> around rut "hubs" is very interesting. Question:
> is there anything you noticed that definitely
> makes the quarry features and the ruts
> contemporary?
> [/quote]
> I cannot say definitely, not being a geologist,
> nor a quarry expert. But being an engineer
> familiar with technical and production questions,
> Clapham Junction looked to me a very old (stones
> wear, ground erosion) and well organised quarry.
> In the beginning it seems just to be a mess with
> random "cart ruts". And little by little you begin
> to understand the overall pattern, but it comes
> gradually.
> On the sides of the ruts areas are clear patches
> of rock extraction patterns, but they don't lie
> beside ruts and maybe are younger than ruts. Maybe
> Punic, Greek, Roman.
> But in the end I realized that in several ruts
> areas we were walking on man-made artificially
> levelled parallel strips of rocky terrain, all
> flat (and inclined), all of same limited height
> and width.
> The idea of cutting benches became pregnant. And
> then I realized that they were all crossed by
> parallel cart ruts, and the crossing angle was
> constant. It seem to me that cutting benches were
> following geological sedimentary layers to
> optimize rock quality, whereas ruts direction was
> defined to optimize a constant tracks slope.
> No evidence of course. I visited this site more as
> a tourist than as a specialist, I did not check
> every square inch of terrain, I missed a lot of
> zones. In addition, I confess I should have had
> accurate maps, google earth prints and a compass,
> or a GPS. Unfortunately, as a good tourist, I only
> had my camera, and a limited sight at man's
> height.
> Definitely, this site should be mapped to
> professionaly check if it was a quarry with
> tracks, yes or no.

Again I appreciate your eyewitness account and impressions. I don't have any argument with anything you've said here, and agree that professionals(masons and quarrymen, not archaeologists) should evaluate these sites.

Options: ReplyQuote


Subject Views Written By Posted
Clapham Junction Malta 1647 Rstevens1701 16-Oct-17 15:26
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 372 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 18:45
this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 301 Racho 16-Oct-17 22:45
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 347 Tsurugi 17-Oct-17 04:55
Not carts. 297 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 07:14
Re: Not carts. 210 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:00
Re: Not carts. 210 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 20:17
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 214 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 07:28
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 212 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 08:29
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 202 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:08
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 204 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 16:56
ships on land 200 molder 17-Oct-17 22:43
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 170 molder 18-Oct-17 12:22
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 199 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 13:00
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 179 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 17:23
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 186 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 18:26
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 186 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 19:01
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 142 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:44
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 136 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:36
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 269 molder 08-Nov-17 10:34
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 133 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 05:55
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 172 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 01:53
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 109 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:47
Black Tracks 190 Barbelo 19-Oct-17 01:59
Re: Black Tracks 196 randompHactor 19-Oct-17 02:16
Re: Black Tracks 248 Barbelo 21-Oct-17 00:20
Re: Black Tracks 136 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:51
Turkey Tracks 218 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 222 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 23:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 179 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 02:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 196 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 02:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 194 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 03:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 181 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 04:22
Re: Turkey Tracks 255 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 216 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 23:54
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 160 Jon Ellison 19-Oct-17 01:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 134 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 19:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 104 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 04:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 134 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 05:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 141 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 18:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 140 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 19:15
Re: Turkey Tracks 136 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 19:20
Re: Turkey Tracks 140 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 133 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 20:12
Re: Turkey Tracks 141 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:34
Re: Turkey Tracks 151 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 21:21
Re: Turkey Tracks 144 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:44
Re: Turkey Tracks 117 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 170 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 129 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 23:52
Re: Turkey Tracks 207 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:38
Re: Turkey Tracks 196 Jon Ellison 08-Nov-17 09:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 106 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 02:40
Re: Turkey Tracks 259 Jon Ellison 09-Nov-17 08:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 171 Tsurugi 25-Nov-17 08:10
Re: Turkey Tracks 128 Mike D 26-Nov-17 16:57
Re: Turkey Tracks 108 Jon Ellison 26-Nov-17 18:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 138 Mike D 27-Nov-17 09:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 172 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:16
Re: Turkey Tracks 114 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 21:26
Re: Turkey Tracks 215 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 130 Anonymous User 07-Nov-17 22:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 205 Mike D 25-Nov-17 13:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 153 molder 25-Nov-17 20:51
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 126 Mike D 26-Nov-17 12:46
The Diolkos 130 molder 26-Nov-17 21:36
Re: The Diolkos 121 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 140 Mike D 26-Nov-17 13:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 116 Tsurugi 27-Nov-17 09:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 129 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 153 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 11:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 112 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:27
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 107 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 18:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 116 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 105 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 11:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 136 Mike D 28-Nov-17 11:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 105 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 13:43
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 106 Mike D 28-Nov-17 14:55
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 95 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 16:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 119 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:22
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 124 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 03:16
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 198 Mike D 29-Nov-17 09:54
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 141 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 15:06
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 76 Mike D 30-Nov-17 11:25
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 89 Jon Ellison 30-Nov-17 12:41
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 105 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 13:56
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 139 Mike D 30-Nov-17 14:11
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 242 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 15:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 106 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:49
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 109 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:28
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 123 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 04:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 133 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 117 Origyptian 27-Nov-17 15:48
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 194 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 102 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 05:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 134 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 100 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:34
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 141 Mike D 29-Nov-17 18:23
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 107 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 05:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 115 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 05:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 95 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 100 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:18
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 283 Audrey 28-Nov-17 03:14
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 123 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:39
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 134 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:30
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 120 molder 28-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 292 molder 18-Nov-17 22:20
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 154 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 141 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:46
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 98 molder 30-Nov-17 05:22
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 176 Mike D 30-Nov-17 10:59


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