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Mike D Wrote:
> And after, please see my answer to Jon to clarify
> my views and state of mind:
> [url=,11
> 20291,1124920#msg-1124920]Answer to Jon
> Ellison[/url]

Thanks. I was worried, after I posted my reply above, that it might seem I was attacking you or your views. I want to stress that was not my intention. I wanted to criticize the paper a bit, mostly for what I saw as methodological problems.

> To me, even if I am not opposed to the theory of
> very, very old imprints on soft clay that turn out
> solid afterwards, I don't think it can apply to
> the case of Malta, although they must also be old,
> before catastrophes in the Mediterranean, may be
> contemporary of Atlantis, not impossible to me.

Ok. I appreciate the fact that you have been there and seen these features in person, which is vastly different from any amount of photo browsing. I haven't seen the ruts in person(yet. my plan is to win the lottery) so I can only theorize from my armchair, hah.

Mostly, this argument for me has centered on the problem of precision in rut creation. Clapham Junction, from the photos, sort of looks like the starting line of a huge off-road race: lots of basically parallel ruts in messy mud that appear to head straight off a cliff edge or some sort of precipitous drop. The ruts are heavily eroded but appear to be roughly uniform in cross section, and are generally much wider than the width of a cart wheel. These ruts, therefore, are not really precise, like some of the Maltese ruts seem to be....deep and narrow, the width of a single cart wheel(or perhaps a tiny bit wider).
To me it is these narrow ruts that seem unlikely to be anything other than ruts made in soft material that later hardened, because the precision seems to be too great to be a result of multiple cart crossings.

Again, I haven't been there so this is based on a limited perspective.

> Considering that more wet paleo climate may have
> helped the wear of tracks, I am thinking here to
> Robert Soch claims about the water erosion of
> Gizah Sphinx.

Understood. Remember tho that Schoch estimated a thousand years of torrential rains were necessary to cause the water erosion features seen in the Sphinx enclosure. Again, it is hard for me to reconcile this with the concept of the passage of carts as an erosional force.

However, in the interim since posting my reply and now, I have thought of a few possibilities I want to run by you(and anyone else who is reading this).

One possibility is that the precise ruts could maybe have been made by carts moving across stone [i]if the drivers of the carts intended for them to be made[/i] for whatever reason. If they intended ruts to form, they could maybe have paid close attention to each passage and tried to keep the wheels on the exact same path so as to cut the ruts. I'm not sure why this would be a desired outcome but I think it is much more plausible if ruts were intended than for them to have formed accidentally.

Another possibility is that, at the time of the passage of these carts, there existed atop the bare rock we now see, some amount of clay or thick mud. A single passage of a cart through this material would cut ruts into it down to the bedrock. If the material then dried and hardened, the ruts made by the first cart could constrain the passages of any other carts so that they always crossed in the same place on the limestone, eventually wearing it down. Maybe. More rain would probably mess this up however.

> Now, to answer your question: [quote="Tsurugi
> question:"]
> That said, your observations of quarry features
> around rut "hubs" is very interesting. Question:
> is there anything you noticed that definitely
> makes the quarry features and the ruts
> contemporary?
> [/quote]
> I cannot say definitely, not being a geologist,
> nor a quarry expert. But being an engineer
> familiar with technical and production questions,
> Clapham Junction looked to me a very old (stones
> wear, ground erosion) and well organised quarry.
> In the beginning it seems just to be a mess with
> random "cart ruts". And little by little you begin
> to understand the overall pattern, but it comes
> gradually.
> On the sides of the ruts areas are clear patches
> of rock extraction patterns, but they don't lie
> beside ruts and maybe are younger than ruts. Maybe
> Punic, Greek, Roman.
> But in the end I realized that in several ruts
> areas we were walking on man-made artificially
> levelled parallel strips of rocky terrain, all
> flat (and inclined), all of same limited height
> and width.
> The idea of cutting benches became pregnant. And
> then I realized that they were all crossed by
> parallel cart ruts, and the crossing angle was
> constant. It seem to me that cutting benches were
> following geological sedimentary layers to
> optimize rock quality, whereas ruts direction was
> defined to optimize a constant tracks slope.
> No evidence of course. I visited this site more as
> a tourist than as a specialist, I did not check
> every square inch of terrain, I missed a lot of
> zones. In addition, I confess I should have had
> accurate maps, google earth prints and a compass,
> or a GPS. Unfortunately, as a good tourist, I only
> had my camera, and a limited sight at man's
> height.
> Definitely, this site should be mapped to
> professionaly check if it was a quarry with
> tracks, yes or no.

Again I appreciate your eyewitness account and impressions. I don't have any argument with anything you've said here, and agree that professionals(masons and quarrymen, not archaeologists) should evaluate these sites.

Options: ReplyQuote

Subject Views Written By Posted
Clapham Junction Malta 2012 Rstevens1701 16-Oct-17 15:26
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 555 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 18:45
this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 420 Racho 16-Oct-17 22:45
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 566 Tsurugi 17-Oct-17 04:55
Not carts. 441 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 07:14
Re: Not carts. 368 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:00
Re: Not carts. 341 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 20:17
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 341 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 07:28
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 343 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 08:29
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 300 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:08
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 322 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 16:56
ships on land 324 molder 17-Oct-17 22:43
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 283 molder 18-Oct-17 12:22
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 330 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 13:00
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 308 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 17:23
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 306 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 18:26
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 312 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 19:01
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 265 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:44
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 253 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:36
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 367 molder 08-Nov-17 10:34
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 227 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 05:55
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 276 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 01:53
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 238 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:47
Black Tracks 334 Barbelo 19-Oct-17 01:59
Re: Black Tracks 335 randompHactor 19-Oct-17 02:16
Re: Black Tracks 425 Barbelo 21-Oct-17 00:20
Re: Black Tracks 229 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:51
Turkey Tracks 329 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 354 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 23:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 274 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 02:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 319 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 02:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 330 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 03:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 300 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 04:22
Re: Turkey Tracks 376 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 366 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 23:54
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 282 Jon Ellison 19-Oct-17 01:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 275 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 19:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 215 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 04:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 237 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 05:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 262 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 18:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 266 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 19:15
Re: Turkey Tracks 234 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 19:20
Re: Turkey Tracks 244 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 265 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 20:12
Re: Turkey Tracks 328 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:34
Re: Turkey Tracks 269 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 21:21
Re: Turkey Tracks 260 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:44
Re: Turkey Tracks 237 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 398 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 257 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 23:52
Re: Turkey Tracks 340 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:38
Re: Turkey Tracks 301 Jon Ellison 08-Nov-17 09:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 233 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 02:40
Re: Turkey Tracks 435 Jon Ellison 09-Nov-17 08:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 323 Tsurugi 25-Nov-17 08:10
Re: Turkey Tracks 268 Mike D 26-Nov-17 16:57
Re: Turkey Tracks 221 Jon Ellison 26-Nov-17 18:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 306 Mike D 27-Nov-17 09:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 277 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:16
Re: Turkey Tracks 247 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 21:26
Re: Turkey Tracks 334 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 245 Anonymous User 07-Nov-17 22:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 392 Mike D 25-Nov-17 13:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 259 molder 25-Nov-17 20:51
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 261 Mike D 26-Nov-17 12:46
The Diolkos 234 molder 26-Nov-17 21:36
Re: The Diolkos 229 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 290 Mike D 26-Nov-17 13:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 239 Tsurugi 27-Nov-17 09:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 255 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 268 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 11:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 297 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:27
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 251 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 18:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 246 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 234 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 11:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 268 Mike D 28-Nov-17 11:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 247 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 13:43
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 293 Mike D 28-Nov-17 14:55
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 201 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 16:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 249 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:22
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 237 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 03:16
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 352 Mike D 29-Nov-17 09:54
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 299 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 15:06
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 200 Mike D 30-Nov-17 11:25
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 232 Jon Ellison 30-Nov-17 12:41
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 204 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 13:56
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 285 Mike D 30-Nov-17 14:11
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 409 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 15:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 260 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:49
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 229 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:28
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 296 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 04:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 265 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 223 Origyptian 27-Nov-17 15:48
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 381 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 233 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 05:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 271 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 220 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:34
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 266 Mike D 29-Nov-17 18:23
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 217 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 05:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 241 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 05:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 244 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 273 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:18
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 557 Audrey 28-Nov-17 03:14
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 266 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:39
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 270 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:30
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 254 molder 28-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 500 molder 18-Nov-17 22:20
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 294 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 258 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:46
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 265 molder 30-Nov-17 05:22
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 302 Mike D 30-Nov-17 10:59

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