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Mike D Wrote:
> Before to answer to you on your point, hereunder
> is a post to Harry Wolf to expose the geological
> question raising about Malta ruts: About 90% of
> them run on the most recent limestone layer, the
> Coralline, whereas they are only a few on older
> and softer limestone layer, namely Globigerina.
> [url=,11
> 20291,1124753#msg-1124753]Malta geology and cart
> ruts distribution correspondence[/url]
> And after, please see my answer to Jon to clarify
> my views and state of mind:
> [url=,11
> 20291,1124920#msg-1124920]Answer to Jon
> Ellison[/url]
> To me, even if I am not opposed to the theory of
> very, very old imprints on soft clay that turn out
> solid afterwards, I don't think it can apply to
> the case of Malta, altough they must also be old,
> before catastrophes in the Mediterranean, may be
> contemporary of Atlantis, not impossible to me.
> Considering that more wet paleo climate may have
> helped the wear of tracks, I am thinking here to
> Robert Soch claims about the water erosion of
> Gizah Sphinx.
> Now, to answer your question: [quote="Tsurugi
> question:"]
> That said, your observations of quarry features
> around rut "hubs" is very interesting. Question:
> is there anything you noticed that definitely
> makes the quarry features and the ruts
> contemporary?
> [/quote]
> I cannot say definitely, not being a geologist,
> nor a quarry expert. But being an engineer
> familiar with technical and production questions,
> Clapham Junction looked to me a very old (stones
> wear, ground erosion) and well organised quarry.
> In the beginning it seems just to be a mess with
> random "cart ruts". And little by little you begin
> to understand the overall pattern, but it comes
> gradually.
> On the sides of the ruts areas are clear patches
> of rock extraction patterns, but they don't lie
> beside ruts and maybe are younger than ruts. Maybe
> Punic, Greek, Roman.
> But in the end I realized that in ruts areas we
> were walking on man-made artificially levelled
> parallel strips of rocky terrain, all flat (and
> inclined), all of same limited height and width.
> The idea of cutting benches became pregnant. And
> then I realized that they were all crossed by
> parallel cart ruts, and the crossing angle was
> constant. It seem to me that cutting benches were
> following geological sedimentary layers to
> optimize rock quality, whereas ruts direction was
> defined to optimize a constant tracks slope.
> No evidence of course.

Hi Mike..
No Worries..

One of the problems I have with the "Ruts cut by repeated traffic" idea is that where we see genuine cart ruts . Roman etc.. they are usually the result of the vehicles being constricted by a built road, side walls or a natural choke point. Not meandering all over the landscape. It would take the passing of probably hundreds of carts to even begin to define a cart track which could be subsequently followed by more carts. Of course this is entirely understandable in the case of a road or choke point as above.
Question is.. How do the meandering cart tracks on rock get started for others to follow? How did cart number two follow exactly cart number one? and so on until there was something well enough defined to follow.
One of the reasons why I currently think that the ruts are not the result high intensity, repeated traffic on hard stuff.
Rather low frequency traffic on soft stuff that is deliberately trying to avoid previous tracks.. For example driving a 4X4 over a deeply rutted, un-constricted area, you tend to try to stay out of the ruts due to your axle height and ground clearance issues. Resulting in sets of tracks meandering all over the place. The "Ski Resort" effect.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Clapham Junction Malta 2012 Rstevens1701 16-Oct-17 15:26
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 555 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 18:45
this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 420 Racho 16-Oct-17 22:45
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 566 Tsurugi 17-Oct-17 04:55
Not carts. 441 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 07:14
Re: Not carts. 368 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:00
Re: Not carts. 342 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 20:17
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 341 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 07:28
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 343 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 08:29
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 300 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:08
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 322 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 16:56
ships on land 324 molder 17-Oct-17 22:43
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 283 molder 18-Oct-17 12:22
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 330 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 13:00
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 308 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 17:23
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 307 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 18:26
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 312 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 19:01
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 265 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:44
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 254 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:36
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 367 molder 08-Nov-17 10:34
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 227 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 05:55
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 276 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 01:53
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 239 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:47
Black Tracks 335 Barbelo 19-Oct-17 01:59
Re: Black Tracks 336 randompHactor 19-Oct-17 02:16
Re: Black Tracks 425 Barbelo 21-Oct-17 00:20
Re: Black Tracks 229 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:51
Turkey Tracks 329 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 354 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 23:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 274 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 02:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 320 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 02:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 331 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 03:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 300 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 04:22
Re: Turkey Tracks 376 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 366 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 23:54
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 282 Jon Ellison 19-Oct-17 01:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 275 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 19:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 216 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 04:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 237 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 05:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 262 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 18:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 266 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 19:15
Re: Turkey Tracks 234 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 19:20
Re: Turkey Tracks 244 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 266 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 20:12
Re: Turkey Tracks 328 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:34
Re: Turkey Tracks 269 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 21:21
Re: Turkey Tracks 260 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:44
Re: Turkey Tracks 237 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 398 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 258 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 23:52
Re: Turkey Tracks 340 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:38
Re: Turkey Tracks 301 Jon Ellison 08-Nov-17 09:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 233 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 02:40
Re: Turkey Tracks 435 Jon Ellison 09-Nov-17 08:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 324 Tsurugi 25-Nov-17 08:10
Re: Turkey Tracks 268 Mike D 26-Nov-17 16:57
Re: Turkey Tracks 221 Jon Ellison 26-Nov-17 18:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 307 Mike D 27-Nov-17 09:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 277 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:16
Re: Turkey Tracks 247 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 21:26
Re: Turkey Tracks 335 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 245 Anonymous User 07-Nov-17 22:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 392 Mike D 25-Nov-17 13:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 259 molder 25-Nov-17 20:51
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 262 Mike D 26-Nov-17 12:46
The Diolkos 234 molder 26-Nov-17 21:36
Re: The Diolkos 229 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 290 Mike D 26-Nov-17 13:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 239 Tsurugi 27-Nov-17 09:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 255 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 268 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 11:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 297 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:27
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 251 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 18:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 246 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 234 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 11:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 269 Mike D 28-Nov-17 11:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 247 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 13:43
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 293 Mike D 28-Nov-17 14:55
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 201 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 16:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 249 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:22
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 237 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 03:16
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 352 Mike D 29-Nov-17 09:54
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 300 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 15:06
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 200 Mike D 30-Nov-17 11:25
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 232 Jon Ellison 30-Nov-17 12:41
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 204 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 13:56
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 286 Mike D 30-Nov-17 14:11
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 409 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 15:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 261 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:49
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 229 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:28
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 297 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 04:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 265 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 223 Origyptian 27-Nov-17 15:48
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 382 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 233 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 05:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 272 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 221 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:34
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 267 Mike D 29-Nov-17 18:23
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 217 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 05:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 241 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 05:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 244 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 273 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:18
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 558 Audrey 28-Nov-17 03:14
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 266 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:39
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 270 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:30
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 254 molder 28-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 500 molder 18-Nov-17 22:20
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 294 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 259 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:46
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 265 molder 30-Nov-17 05:22
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 302 Mike D 30-Nov-17 10:59

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