Mysteries :  The Official GrahamHancock.com forums
For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
Welcome! Log InRegister
Mike D Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Answers:
> In their document "The cart ruts of Malta: an
> applied geomorphology approach",Derek Mottershead,
> Alastair Pearson & Martin Schaefer exposed
> scientific measurements that show how wood can
> wear out limestone. Think also how wood can be
> hardened with fire, and that cart wooden wheels
> can be replaced in a good maintenance process.

Thanks for the link. It was interesting how they "reverse-engineered" the carts from their determinations, but the whole paper is an example of reverse engineering of a kind seen all too often in archaeology(and seen plenty in "fringe" archaeology as well): working backwards from a conclusion toward observed data. In this case the conclusion is the ruts were made in stone by repeated passages of primitive wooden carts. All of the calculations and data gathering outlined in the paper were made with this conclusion in mind.

This doesn't mean the conclusion is incorrect. It just means that there could be data that falsifies the conclusion that the authors did not see, because they weren't looking for it. Confirmation bias, in other words.

For example, I was hoping there would be a geomorphological examination of the matrix of rock immediately below and to the sides of the ruts, and comparison to the matrix of a control(similar rock, sans ruts), like what is done with fossilized footprints. The matrix around and under a genuine print displays heightened density and lateral displacement, showing that the rock in which the print is found was in a semi-liquid state at the time the print was made. To my disappointment, such a test did not even seem to occur to the authors of the paper.
But why should it? The possibility the ruts were made before the rock hardened was the farthest thing from their minds because they already had their conclusions. Confirmation bias.

It's unfortunate, because such a test would definitively answer the question of whether the ruts were made before or after the rock hardened. If no compression and lateral displacement is evident in the rock material around the ruts, they were not made when the rock was soft, it's as simple as that. Yet such a study continues to not be made. Why?


As to the calculations made by the authors of the paper in support of their conclusion, I am suspicious of the "stress concentration factor" by which they magnified the erosive effects of cart wheels by a factor of ten. That seems ridiculous imho?? When removed from the calculation, carts carrying loads of a minimum of 6 tons or twelve thousand pounds is required before any "erosion by wheel" would take place, if their other assertions and methods are assumed to be correct...

....which brings me to my final point re: the paper. They concluded that on the stone of Clapham Junction, the passage of a single unladen cart was sufficient to "erode" the rock and begin to produce ruts. Why didn't they demonstrate this?? One run of a single unladen cart would take a few minutes at most. Yet they did not do it, nor has it been done by anyone else. Why?




> Then, we may infer that quarries remained in usage
> during bronze age, punic, greek and roman eras,
> allowing usage of metal rimmed wheels which
> deepened the tracks to a limit.
> The presence of punic tombs cut right across in
> the way of cart ruts, so interrupting them, shows
> that ruts existed before maybe Phoenicians.
> The fact that they run underwater and off cliffs
> shows that they preceeded the catastrophes in the
> Mediterranean, maybe the same which damaged the
> temples, or even before. We are now dealing with
> several thousand of years.


Even with metal-rimmed wheels, there is still the problem of ox-drawn carts following the same path so precisely, and repeating it enough times as to make deep ruts which their wheels could not escape. This is the process which I feel needs to be demonstrated. IMO, it won't be, because it is ludicrous. This is ignored only because alternatives are altogether unpalatable to mainstream thinking.


That said, your observations of quarry features around rut "hubs" is very interesting. Question: is there anything you noticed that definitely makes the quarry features and the ruts contemporary?

Options: ReplyQuote


Subject Views Written By Posted
Clapham Junction Malta 2028 Rstevens1701 16-Oct-17 15:26
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 565 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 18:45
this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 425 Racho 16-Oct-17 22:45
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 592 Tsurugi 17-Oct-17 04:55
Not carts. 449 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 07:14
Re: Not carts. 378 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:00
Re: Not carts. 348 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 20:17
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 352 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 07:28
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 351 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 08:29
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 307 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:08
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 332 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 16:56
ships on land 333 molder 17-Oct-17 22:43
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 294 molder 18-Oct-17 12:22
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 336 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 13:00
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 317 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 17:23
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 327 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 18:26
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 319 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 19:01
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 272 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:44
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 260 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:36
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 377 molder 08-Nov-17 10:34
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 232 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 05:55
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 284 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 01:53
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 244 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:47
Black Tracks 342 Barbelo 19-Oct-17 01:59
Re: Black Tracks 342 randompHactor 19-Oct-17 02:16
Re: Black Tracks 441 Barbelo 21-Oct-17 00:20
Re: Black Tracks 234 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:51
Turkey Tracks 338 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 362 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 23:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 286 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 02:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 331 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 02:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 344 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 03:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 310 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 04:22
Re: Turkey Tracks 387 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 380 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 23:54
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 291 Jon Ellison 19-Oct-17 01:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 285 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 19:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 224 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 04:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 244 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 05:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 270 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 18:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 276 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 19:15
Re: Turkey Tracks 242 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 19:20
Re: Turkey Tracks 251 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 274 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 20:12
Re: Turkey Tracks 337 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:34
Re: Turkey Tracks 276 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 21:21
Re: Turkey Tracks 266 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:44
Re: Turkey Tracks 244 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 411 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 263 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 23:52
Re: Turkey Tracks 348 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:38
Re: Turkey Tracks 307 Jon Ellison 08-Nov-17 09:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 240 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 02:40
Re: Turkey Tracks 444 Jon Ellison 09-Nov-17 08:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 329 Tsurugi 25-Nov-17 08:10
Re: Turkey Tracks 277 Mike D 26-Nov-17 16:57
Re: Turkey Tracks 229 Jon Ellison 26-Nov-17 18:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 315 Mike D 27-Nov-17 09:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 287 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:16
Re: Turkey Tracks 257 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 21:26
Re: Turkey Tracks 341 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 253 Anonymous User 07-Nov-17 22:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 409 Mike D 25-Nov-17 13:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 267 molder 25-Nov-17 20:51
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 270 Mike D 26-Nov-17 12:46
The Diolkos 253 molder 26-Nov-17 21:36
Re: The Diolkos 238 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 301 Mike D 26-Nov-17 13:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 246 Tsurugi 27-Nov-17 09:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 264 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 278 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 11:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 304 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:27
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 263 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 18:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 254 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 243 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 11:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 276 Mike D 28-Nov-17 11:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 258 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 13:43
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 304 Mike D 28-Nov-17 14:55
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 211 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 16:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 256 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:22
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 246 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 03:16
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 363 Mike D 29-Nov-17 09:54
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 306 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 15:06
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 206 Mike D 30-Nov-17 11:25
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 239 Jon Ellison 30-Nov-17 12:41
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 210 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 13:56
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 293 Mike D 30-Nov-17 14:11
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 419 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 15:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 269 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:49
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 237 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:28
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 306 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 04:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 274 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 231 Origyptian 27-Nov-17 15:48
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 396 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 241 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 05:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 279 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 227 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:34
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 277 Mike D 29-Nov-17 18:23
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 222 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 05:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 249 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 05:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 261 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 284 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:18
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 573 Audrey 28-Nov-17 03:14
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 273 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:39
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 278 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:30
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 264 molder 28-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 511 molder 18-Nov-17 22:20
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 300 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 266 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:46
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 275 molder 30-Nov-17 05:22
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 311 Mike D 30-Nov-17 10:59


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.