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Mike D Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Answers:
> In their document "The cart ruts of Malta: an
> applied geomorphology approach",Derek Mottershead,
> Alastair Pearson & Martin Schaefer exposed
> scientific measurements that show how wood can
> wear out limestone. Think also how wood can be
> hardened with fire, and that cart wooden wheels
> can be replaced in a good maintenance process.

Thanks for the link. It was interesting how they "reverse-engineered" the carts from their determinations, but the whole paper is an example of reverse engineering of a kind seen all too often in archaeology(and seen plenty in "fringe" archaeology as well): working backwards from a conclusion toward observed data. In this case the conclusion is the ruts were made in stone by repeated passages of primitive wooden carts. All of the calculations and data gathering outlined in the paper were made with this conclusion in mind.

This doesn't mean the conclusion is incorrect. It just means that there could be data that falsifies the conclusion that the authors did not see, because they weren't looking for it. Confirmation bias, in other words.

For example, I was hoping there would be a geomorphological examination of the matrix of rock immediately below and to the sides of the ruts, and comparison to the matrix of a control(similar rock, sans ruts), like what is done with fossilized footprints. The matrix around and under a genuine print displays heightened density and lateral displacement, showing that the rock in which the print is found was in a semi-liquid state at the time the print was made. To my disappointment, such a test did not even seem to occur to the authors of the paper.
But why should it? The possibility the ruts were made before the rock hardened was the farthest thing from their minds because they already had their conclusions. Confirmation bias.

It's unfortunate, because such a test would definitively answer the question of whether the ruts were made before or after the rock hardened. If no compression and lateral displacement is evident in the rock material around the ruts, they were not made when the rock was soft, it's as simple as that. Yet such a study continues to not be made. Why?


As to the calculations made by the authors of the paper in support of their conclusion, I am suspicious of the "stress concentration factor" by which they magnified the erosive effects of cart wheels by a factor of ten. That seems ridiculous imho?? When removed from the calculation, carts carrying loads of a minimum of 6 tons or twelve thousand pounds is required before any "erosion by wheel" would take place, if their other assertions and methods are assumed to be correct...

....which brings me to my final point re: the paper. They concluded that on the stone of Clapham Junction, the passage of a single unladen cart was sufficient to "erode" the rock and begin to produce ruts. Why didn't they demonstrate this?? One run of a single unladen cart would take a few minutes at most. Yet they did not do it, nor has it been done by anyone else. Why?




> Then, we may infer that quarries remained in usage
> during bronze age, punic, greek and roman eras,
> allowing usage of metal rimmed wheels which
> deepened the tracks to a limit.
> The presence of punic tombs cut right across in
> the way of cart ruts, so interrupting them, shows
> that ruts existed before maybe Phoenicians.
> The fact that they run underwater and off cliffs
> shows that they preceeded the catastrophes in the
> Mediterranean, maybe the same which damaged the
> temples, or even before. We are now dealing with
> several thousand of years.


Even with metal-rimmed wheels, there is still the problem of ox-drawn carts following the same path so precisely, and repeating it enough times as to make deep ruts which their wheels could not escape. This is the process which I feel needs to be demonstrated. IMO, it won't be, because it is ludicrous. This is ignored only because alternatives are altogether unpalatable to mainstream thinking.


That said, your observations of quarry features around rut "hubs" is very interesting. Question: is there anything you noticed that definitely makes the quarry features and the ruts contemporary?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Clapham Junction Malta 1648 Rstevens1701 16-Oct-17 15:26
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 373 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 18:45
this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 303 Racho 16-Oct-17 22:45
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 348 Tsurugi 17-Oct-17 04:55
Not carts. 297 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 07:14
Re: Not carts. 211 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:00
Re: Not carts. 211 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 20:17
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 216 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 07:28
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 213 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 08:29
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 203 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:08
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 204 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 16:56
ships on land 202 molder 17-Oct-17 22:43
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 171 molder 18-Oct-17 12:22
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 200 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 13:00
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 179 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 17:23
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 187 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 18:26
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 186 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 19:01
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 144 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:44
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 136 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:36
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 269 molder 08-Nov-17 10:34
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 134 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 05:55
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 172 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 01:53
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 110 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:47
Black Tracks 191 Barbelo 19-Oct-17 01:59
Re: Black Tracks 197 randompHactor 19-Oct-17 02:16
Re: Black Tracks 248 Barbelo 21-Oct-17 00:20
Re: Black Tracks 136 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:51
Turkey Tracks 218 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 222 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 23:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 179 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 02:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 196 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 02:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 197 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 03:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 182 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 04:22
Re: Turkey Tracks 256 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 216 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 23:54
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 160 Jon Ellison 19-Oct-17 01:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 135 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 19:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 105 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 04:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 134 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 05:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 142 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 18:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 140 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 19:15
Re: Turkey Tracks 137 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 19:20
Re: Turkey Tracks 140 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 133 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 20:12
Re: Turkey Tracks 142 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:34
Re: Turkey Tracks 153 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 21:21
Re: Turkey Tracks 145 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:44
Re: Turkey Tracks 118 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 171 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 130 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 23:52
Re: Turkey Tracks 207 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:38
Re: Turkey Tracks 197 Jon Ellison 08-Nov-17 09:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 106 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 02:40
Re: Turkey Tracks 259 Jon Ellison 09-Nov-17 08:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 174 Tsurugi 25-Nov-17 08:10
Re: Turkey Tracks 129 Mike D 26-Nov-17 16:57
Re: Turkey Tracks 108 Jon Ellison 26-Nov-17 18:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 139 Mike D 27-Nov-17 09:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 172 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:16
Re: Turkey Tracks 116 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 21:26
Re: Turkey Tracks 216 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 130 Anonymous User 07-Nov-17 22:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 206 Mike D 25-Nov-17 13:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 154 molder 25-Nov-17 20:51
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 127 Mike D 26-Nov-17 12:46
The Diolkos 132 molder 26-Nov-17 21:36
Re: The Diolkos 122 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 140 Mike D 26-Nov-17 13:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 116 Tsurugi 27-Nov-17 09:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 129 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 153 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 11:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 114 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:27
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 109 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 18:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 117 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 105 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 11:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 136 Mike D 28-Nov-17 11:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 106 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 13:43
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 106 Mike D 28-Nov-17 14:55
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 95 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 16:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 120 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:22
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 125 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 03:16
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 198 Mike D 29-Nov-17 09:54
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 143 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 15:06
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 76 Mike D 30-Nov-17 11:25
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 89 Jon Ellison 30-Nov-17 12:41
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 106 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 13:56
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 141 Mike D 30-Nov-17 14:11
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 242 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 15:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 107 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:49
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 110 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:28
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 125 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 04:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 135 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 117 Origyptian 27-Nov-17 15:48
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 195 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 103 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 05:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 135 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 101 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:34
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 142 Mike D 29-Nov-17 18:23
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 109 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 05:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 116 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 05:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 96 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 102 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:18
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 284 Audrey 28-Nov-17 03:14
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 124 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:39
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 134 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:30
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 120 molder 28-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 293 molder 18-Nov-17 22:20
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 154 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 141 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:46
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 100 molder 30-Nov-17 05:22
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 177 Mike D 30-Nov-17 10:59


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