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Jon Ellison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Racho.
>
> If you don't mind me chiming in.
>
> The rock hardness issue isn't an issue at all, in
> that what were looking at here are tooling
> signatures.
> Some stuff is in extraordinarily hard rock, some
> less so, The hard stuff defies explanation.
> Anyway that aside..
>
> Tooling Signatures or Witness Marks.
>
> The terms "machine tools", "power tools" etc. are
> thrown around on here seemingly without proper
> regard for what they actually are, how they
> function, and more importantly what signature they
> leave behind.
>
> Three kinds of tools.
> There's more and and also grey areas, but let's
> just look at the main three for now.
>
> Class A.
> Hand tools.
> These are tools where the motive force and the
> positioning and guidance are entirely provided by
> the operator.
> Examples would be a hand saw and a sewing needle.
>
> Class B.
> Power Tools.
> These are tools where the motive force is provided
> by other than the operator, but the tool is
> positioned and guided entirely by the operator.
> Examples would be a chain saw, a wood turning
> simple lathe and an electric tooth brush.
>
> Class C.
> Machine tools.
> These are tools where both the motive force and
> the tool guidance and positioning is provided from
> a mechanical source.
> Examples would be a machine lathe or drill press.
>
> Hand tools A. Are hard work and although can be
> used with high precision if used along with
> precision measuring instruments.
> They generally do not leave repeating signatures.
>
> Power tools B. make life easier for the operator
> and can be used with precision, if like hand tools
> they are used along with precision measuring
> instruments.
> They leave precise repeating signatures in the
> micro domain, like for example a rotating wire
> brush, each wire leaving its mark repeatedly, but
> in the macro domain produce non precision, non
> repeating signatures. Like the track of a powered
> rotating wire brush moved by hand across a
> surface.
>
> Machine tools C. are often used with precision and
> repetition, they allow for precision placement of
> the tool and progression with great accuracy as
> they eliminate the human propensity to Err.
> Machine tools often do have an initial human input
> but rely on a mechanical datum external to the
> work piece to eliminate human error.
> They typically leave a high precision surface and
> exhibit a repeating and constant signature.
>
> Anyways a handle on all of the above can go some
> way to identifying the probable techniques
> employed from the various signatures and witness
> marks we see today.


This frame takes my breath away:



I don't see how that could be a hand-worked surface. The striations are straight, parallel, equally spaced, and I see no obvious segmentation. No overlap, no curves. It looks like a single machined surface. The only apparent deviation from perfect parallel is an optical illusion that's caused by the perspective from the camera being located toward the bottom of that tooled face. But when you compensate for the perspective viewpoint, it certainly looks like a smoking gun for a machined surface.

Alternatively, I'm wondering if it could be ancient troweled adhesive that once held a layer of valuable surface material that has since been lost or pilfered. There does seem to be a lot of relatively modern hacking amidst what clearly seems to be darker, older stonework.

______________________________________________________________
How can any of us ever know, when all we can do is think?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 2731 Racho 02-Apr-17 18:38
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 717 Fsbirdhouse 02-Apr-17 20:05
Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 640 Racho 04-Apr-17 14:02
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 639 Fsbirdhouse 04-Apr-17 14:51
If on purpose... 250 Racho 14-Apr-17 05:01
Re: If on purpose... 282 Origyptian 14-Apr-17 05:32
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 546 Origyptian 07-Apr-17 13:28
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 512 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 22:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 326 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 16:59
Re: B 4 : ) 509 Thunderbird 05-Apr-17 05:22
Re: B 4 : ) 460 Warwick 07-Apr-17 17:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 520 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 01:30
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 653 Warwick 07-Apr-17 18:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 716 Jon Ellison 08-Apr-17 10:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 403 Warwick 08-Apr-17 17:57
if I carried out a test... 512 Racho 09-Apr-17 02:15
Re: if I carried out a test... 464 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 08:44
I did check it out :) 355 Racho 25-Apr-17 05:59
Re: I did check it out :) 256 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 14:22
Don't even need to stop to think on this... 260 Racho 25-Apr-17 15:37
Re: Don't even need to stop to think on this... 318 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 17:20
I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 260 Racho 25-Apr-17 18:07
Re: I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 328 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 19:49
Would you agree... 290 Racho 25-Apr-17 20:29
Re: Would you agree... 336 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 21:07
Re: Would you agree... 305 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 22:54
...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 219 Racho 15-Oct-17 05:46
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 168 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 14:26
precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 224 Racho 15-Oct-17 16:49
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 204 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:20
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 220 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:35
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 204 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 03:27
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 212 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 07:58
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 190 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 09:19
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 440 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 11:03
Re: Would you agree... 491 Corpuscles 25-Apr-17 23:56
Re: if I carried out a test... 337 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:39
Re: if I carried out a test... 386 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 22:34
Re: if I carried out a test... 293 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 23:20
could not have been 351 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:34
Re: could not have been 345 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:18
Re: could not have been 372 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:29
Re: could not have been 359 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 17:59
Re: could not have been 289 Warwick 10-Apr-17 18:48
Re: could not have been 284 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:18
Re: could not have been 314 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:34
Re: could not have been 343 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:55
Re: could not have been 294 Warwick 11-Apr-17 17:29
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 304 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:13
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 410 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 347 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:56
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 315 Warwick 09-Apr-17 17:21
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 367 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:00
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 324 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 313 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:22
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 354 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 313 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:02
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 380 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:41
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 307 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 18:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 328 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 323 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:17
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 327 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:48
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 445 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 20:33
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 299 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 409 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 415 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 23:24
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 343 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 04:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 341 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 08:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 323 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:16
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 311 Thanos5150 10-Apr-17 15:25
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 298 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 363 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 315 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 313 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:54
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 319 Warwick 10-Apr-17 16:01
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 367 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:23
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 327 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 323 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:11
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 316 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:23
I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 463 Racho 08-Apr-17 16:54
Re: I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 467 Warwick 08-Apr-17 18:23
Oranges and apples... 392 Racho 09-Apr-17 00:39
Re: Oranges and apples... 343 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:59
Re: In plain sight 377 Thunderbird 10-Apr-17 19:53
It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 354 Racho 14-Apr-17 06:53
Re: It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 403 Thunderbird 15-Apr-17 01:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 342 Archae Solenhofen 09-Apr-17 16:47
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 330 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:52
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 331 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 338 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 317 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:09
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 379 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 399 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:59
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 326 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 323 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 300 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:46
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 375 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 18:45
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 336 Eddie Larry 10-Apr-17 18:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 332 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 18:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 345 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:18
unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 300 Racho 11-Apr-17 06:22
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 417 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 09:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 233 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:32
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 363 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:38
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 222 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:11
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 323 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 14:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 317 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 300 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 306 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 15:53
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 361 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:55
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 368 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 16:35
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 190 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 16:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 201 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:54
once the mistake... 299 Racho 12-Apr-17 00:03
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 394 Thunderbird 12-Apr-17 04:20
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 246 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 13:14
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 364 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 17:31
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 307 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:17
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 301 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:26
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 363 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 279 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 14:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 287 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 18:41
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 318 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 250 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 18:48
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 324 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:00
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 248 Warwick 11-Apr-17 19:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 321 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:59
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 243 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 306 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:34
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 331 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 237 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 299 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 229 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:24
science and technology...where minds come to meet 265 Racho 11-Apr-17 20:46
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 264 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 21:19
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 518 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 15:01
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 309 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:52
43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 318 Racho 12-Apr-17 20:20
Re: 43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 385 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 21:34
and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 427 Racho 12-Apr-17 22:54
Re: and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 329 Warwick 13-Apr-17 17:15
taking sides...I suppose so but 330 Racho 14-Apr-17 04:18
beating the dead horse... 434 Racho 20-Apr-17 06:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 492 Notinham 11-Apr-17 01:43


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