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Jon Ellison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Racho.
>
> If you don't mind me chiming in.
>
> The rock hardness issue isn't an issue at all, in
> that what were looking at here are tooling
> signatures.
> Some stuff is in extraordinarily hard rock, some
> less so, The hard stuff defies explanation.
> Anyway that aside..
>
> Tooling Signatures or Witness Marks.
>
> The terms "machine tools", "power tools" etc. are
> thrown around on here seemingly without proper
> regard for what they actually are, how they
> function, and more importantly what signature they
> leave behind.
>
> Three kinds of tools.
> There's more and and also grey areas, but let's
> just look at the main three for now.
>
> Class A.
> Hand tools.
> These are tools where the motive force and the
> positioning and guidance are entirely provided by
> the operator.
> Examples would be a hand saw and a sewing needle.
>
> Class B.
> Power Tools.
> These are tools where the motive force is provided
> by other than the operator, but the tool is
> positioned and guided entirely by the operator.
> Examples would be a chain saw, a wood turning
> simple lathe and an electric tooth brush.
>
> Class C.
> Machine tools.
> These are tools where both the motive force and
> the tool guidance and positioning is provided from
> a mechanical source.
> Examples would be a machine lathe or drill press.
>
> Hand tools A. Are hard work and although can be
> used with high precision if used along with
> precision measuring instruments.
> They generally do not leave repeating signatures.
>
> Power tools B. make life easier for the operator
> and can be used with precision, if like hand tools
> they are used along with precision measuring
> instruments.
> They leave precise repeating signatures in the
> micro domain, like for example a rotating wire
> brush, each wire leaving its mark repeatedly, but
> in the macro domain produce non precision, non
> repeating signatures. Like the track of a powered
> rotating wire brush moved by hand across a
> surface.
>
> Machine tools C. are often used with precision and
> repetition, they allow for precision placement of
> the tool and progression with great accuracy as
> they eliminate the human propensity to Err.
> Machine tools often do have an initial human input
> but rely on a mechanical datum external to the
> work piece to eliminate human error.
> They typically leave a high precision surface and
> exhibit a repeating and constant signature.
>
> Anyways a handle on all of the above can go some
> way to identifying the probable techniques
> employed from the various signatures and witness
> marks we see today.


This frame takes my breath away:



I don't see how that could be a hand-worked surface. The striations are straight, parallel, equally spaced, and I see no obvious segmentation. No overlap, no curves. It looks like a single machined surface. The only apparent deviation from perfect parallel is an optical illusion that's caused by the perspective from the camera being located toward the bottom of that tooled face. But when you compensate for the perspective viewpoint, it certainly looks like a smoking gun for a machined surface.

Alternatively, I'm wondering if it could be ancient troweled adhesive that once held a layer of valuable surface material that has since been lost or pilfered. There does seem to be a lot of relatively modern hacking amidst what clearly seems to be darker, older stonework.

______________________________________________________________
How can any of us ever know, when all we can do is think?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 3029 Racho 02-Apr-17 18:38
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 785 Fsbirdhouse 02-Apr-17 20:05
Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 715 Racho 04-Apr-17 14:02
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 691 Fsbirdhouse 04-Apr-17 14:51
If on purpose... 289 Racho 14-Apr-17 05:01
Re: If on purpose... 330 Origyptian 14-Apr-17 05:32
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 594 Origyptian 07-Apr-17 13:28
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 563 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 22:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 356 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 16:59
Re: B 4 : ) 548 Thunderbird 05-Apr-17 05:22
Re: B 4 : ) 506 Warwick 07-Apr-17 17:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 569 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 01:30
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 688 Warwick 07-Apr-17 18:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 760 Jon Ellison 08-Apr-17 10:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 457 Warwick 08-Apr-17 17:57
if I carried out a test... 549 Racho 09-Apr-17 02:15
Re: if I carried out a test... 500 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 08:44
I did check it out :) 385 Racho 25-Apr-17 05:59
Re: I did check it out :) 294 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 14:22
Don't even need to stop to think on this... 292 Racho 25-Apr-17 15:37
Re: Don't even need to stop to think on this... 351 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 17:20
I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 288 Racho 25-Apr-17 18:07
Re: I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 375 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 19:49
Would you agree... 329 Racho 25-Apr-17 20:29
Re: Would you agree... 371 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 21:07
Re: Would you agree... 349 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 22:54
...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 257 Racho 15-Oct-17 05:46
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 197 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 14:26
precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 261 Racho 15-Oct-17 16:49
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 236 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:20
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 248 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:35
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 246 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 03:27
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 251 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 07:58
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 222 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 09:19
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 479 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 11:03
an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 51 Racho 20-Dec-19 20:04
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 45 Martin Stower 20-Dec-19 23:47
? 37 Racho 21-Dec-19 01:25
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 46 Open mind 21-Dec-19 02:03
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 47 Thanos5150 21-Dec-19 04:19
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 49 Open mind 21-Dec-19 05:07
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 56 Thanos5150 21-Dec-19 16:25
Re: Would you agree... 542 Corpuscles 25-Apr-17 23:56
Re: if I carried out a test... 366 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:39
Re: if I carried out a test... 413 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 22:34
Re: if I carried out a test... 326 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 23:20
could not have been 376 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:34
Re: could not have been 376 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:18
Re: could not have been 398 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:29
Re: could not have been 391 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 17:59
Re: could not have been 318 Warwick 10-Apr-17 18:48
Re: could not have been 323 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:18
Re: could not have been 343 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:34
Re: could not have been 374 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:55
Re: could not have been 328 Warwick 11-Apr-17 17:29
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 345 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:13
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 444 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 374 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:56
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 358 Warwick 09-Apr-17 17:21
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 410 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:00
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 358 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 351 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:22
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 385 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 349 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:02
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 423 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:41
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 333 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 18:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 362 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 350 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:17
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 364 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:48
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 484 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 20:33
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 338 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 433 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 445 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 23:24
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 376 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 04:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 366 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 08:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 371 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:16
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 348 Thanos5150 10-Apr-17 15:25
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 332 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 388 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 357 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 341 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:54
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 346 Warwick 10-Apr-17 16:01
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 401 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:23
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 360 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 352 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:11
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 350 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:23
I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 505 Racho 08-Apr-17 16:54
Re: I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 494 Warwick 08-Apr-17 18:23
Oranges and apples... 431 Racho 09-Apr-17 00:39
Re: Oranges and apples... 386 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:59
Re: In plain sight 408 Thunderbird 10-Apr-17 19:53
It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 396 Racho 14-Apr-17 06:53
Re: It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 448 Thunderbird 15-Apr-17 01:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 383 Archae Solenhofen 09-Apr-17 16:47
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 369 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:52
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 360 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 373 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 356 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:09
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 426 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 440 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:59
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 361 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 358 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 338 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:46
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 406 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 18:45
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 370 Eddie Larry 10-Apr-17 18:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 359 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 18:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 382 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:18
unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 341 Racho 11-Apr-17 06:22
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 453 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 09:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 257 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:32
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 403 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:38
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 247 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:11
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 360 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 14:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 343 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 326 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 333 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 15:53
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 390 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:55
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 400 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 16:35
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 216 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 16:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 237 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:54
once the mistake... 331 Racho 12-Apr-17 00:03
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 430 Thunderbird 12-Apr-17 04:20
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 277 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 13:14
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 402 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 17:31
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 332 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:17
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 326 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:26
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 399 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 317 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 14:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 336 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 18:41
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 354 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 281 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 18:48
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 358 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:00
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 284 Warwick 11-Apr-17 19:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 356 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:59
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 283 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 340 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:34
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 372 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 277 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 330 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 259 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:24
science and technology...where minds come to meet 305 Racho 11-Apr-17 20:46
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 303 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 21:19
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 561 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 15:01
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 337 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:52
43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 342 Racho 12-Apr-17 20:20
Re: 43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 425 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 21:34
and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 467 Racho 12-Apr-17 22:54
Re: and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 356 Warwick 13-Apr-17 17:15
taking sides...I suppose so but 376 Racho 14-Apr-17 04:18
beating the dead horse... 481 Racho 20-Apr-17 06:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 525 Notinham 11-Apr-17 01:43


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