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Jon Ellison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Racho.
>
> If you don't mind me chiming in.
>
> The rock hardness issue isn't an issue at all, in
> that what were looking at here are tooling
> signatures.
> Some stuff is in extraordinarily hard rock, some
> less so, The hard stuff defies explanation.
> Anyway that aside..
>
> Tooling Signatures or Witness Marks.
>
> The terms "machine tools", "power tools" etc. are
> thrown around on here seemingly without proper
> regard for what they actually are, how they
> function, and more importantly what signature they
> leave behind.
>
> Three kinds of tools.
> There's more and and also grey areas, but let's
> just look at the main three for now.
>
> Class A.
> Hand tools.
> These are tools where the motive force and the
> positioning and guidance are entirely provided by
> the operator.
> Examples would be a hand saw and a sewing needle.
>
> Class B.
> Power Tools.
> These are tools where the motive force is provided
> by other than the operator, but the tool is
> positioned and guided entirely by the operator.
> Examples would be a chain saw, a wood turning
> simple lathe and an electric tooth brush.
>
> Class C.
> Machine tools.
> These are tools where both the motive force and
> the tool guidance and positioning is provided from
> a mechanical source.
> Examples would be a machine lathe or drill press.
>
> Hand tools A. Are hard work and although can be
> used with high precision if used along with
> precision measuring instruments.
> They generally do not leave repeating signatures.
>
> Power tools B. make life easier for the operator
> and can be used with precision, if like hand tools
> they are used along with precision measuring
> instruments.
> They leave precise repeating signatures in the
> micro domain, like for example a rotating wire
> brush, each wire leaving its mark repeatedly, but
> in the macro domain produce non precision, non
> repeating signatures. Like the track of a powered
> rotating wire brush moved by hand across a
> surface.
>
> Machine tools C. are often used with precision and
> repetition, they allow for precision placement of
> the tool and progression with great accuracy as
> they eliminate the human propensity to Err.
> Machine tools often do have an initial human input
> but rely on a mechanical datum external to the
> work piece to eliminate human error.
> They typically leave a high precision surface and
> exhibit a repeating and constant signature.
>
> Anyways a handle on all of the above can go some
> way to identifying the probable techniques
> employed from the various signatures and witness
> marks we see today.


This frame takes my breath away:



I don't see how that could be a hand-worked surface. The striations are straight, parallel, equally spaced, and I see no obvious segmentation. No overlap, no curves. It looks like a single machined surface. The only apparent deviation from perfect parallel is an optical illusion that's caused by the perspective from the camera being located toward the bottom of that tooled face. But when you compensate for the perspective viewpoint, it certainly looks like a smoking gun for a machined surface.

Alternatively, I'm wondering if it could be ancient troweled adhesive that once held a layer of valuable surface material that has since been lost or pilfered. There does seem to be a lot of relatively modern hacking amidst what clearly seems to be darker, older stonework.

______________________________________________________________
How can any of us ever know, when all we can do is think?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 2683 Racho 02-Apr-17 18:38
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 693 Fsbirdhouse 02-Apr-17 20:05
Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 616 Racho 04-Apr-17 14:02
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 615 Fsbirdhouse 04-Apr-17 14:51
If on purpose... 224 Racho 14-Apr-17 05:01
Re: If on purpose... 255 Origyptian 14-Apr-17 05:32
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 524 Origyptian 07-Apr-17 13:28
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 479 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 22:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 306 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 16:59
Re: B 4 : ) 490 Thunderbird 05-Apr-17 05:22
Re: B 4 : ) 435 Warwick 07-Apr-17 17:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 490 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 01:30
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 620 Warwick 07-Apr-17 18:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 695 Jon Ellison 08-Apr-17 10:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 380 Warwick 08-Apr-17 17:57
if I carried out a test... 488 Racho 09-Apr-17 02:15
Re: if I carried out a test... 441 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 08:44
I did check it out :) 332 Racho 25-Apr-17 05:59
Re: I did check it out :) 229 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 14:22
Don't even need to stop to think on this... 237 Racho 25-Apr-17 15:37
Re: Don't even need to stop to think on this... 277 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 17:20
I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 242 Racho 25-Apr-17 18:07
Re: I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 306 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 19:49
Would you agree... 259 Racho 25-Apr-17 20:29
Re: Would you agree... 311 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 21:07
Re: Would you agree... 288 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 22:54
...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 204 Racho 15-Oct-17 05:46
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 155 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 14:26
precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 210 Racho 15-Oct-17 16:49
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 188 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:20
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 202 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:35
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 189 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 03:27
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 199 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 07:58
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 179 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 09:19
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 408 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 11:03
Re: Would you agree... 464 Corpuscles 25-Apr-17 23:56
Re: if I carried out a test... 312 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:39
Re: if I carried out a test... 365 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 22:34
Re: if I carried out a test... 273 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 23:20
could not have been 324 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:34
Re: could not have been 324 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:18
Re: could not have been 343 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:29
Re: could not have been 336 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 17:59
Re: could not have been 269 Warwick 10-Apr-17 18:48
Re: could not have been 264 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:18
Re: could not have been 285 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:34
Re: could not have been 320 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:55
Re: could not have been 274 Warwick 11-Apr-17 17:29
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 275 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:13
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 382 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 323 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:56
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 296 Warwick 09-Apr-17 17:21
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 341 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:00
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 298 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 290 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:22
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 334 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 293 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:02
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 355 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:41
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 286 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 18:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 305 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 302 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:17
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 291 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:48
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 422 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 20:33
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 277 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 388 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 390 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 23:24
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 319 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 04:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 319 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 08:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 284 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:16
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 281 Thanos5150 10-Apr-17 15:25
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 271 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 336 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 286 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 292 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:54
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 288 Warwick 10-Apr-17 16:01
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 344 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:23
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 303 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 300 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:11
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 285 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:23
I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 436 Racho 08-Apr-17 16:54
Re: I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 434 Warwick 08-Apr-17 18:23
Oranges and apples... 368 Racho 09-Apr-17 00:39
Re: Oranges and apples... 322 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:59
Re: In plain sight 351 Thunderbird 10-Apr-17 19:53
It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 326 Racho 14-Apr-17 06:53
Re: It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 385 Thunderbird 15-Apr-17 01:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 318 Archae Solenhofen 09-Apr-17 16:47
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 302 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:52
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 304 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 315 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 296 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:09
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 350 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 374 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:59
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 302 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 291 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 281 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:46
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 349 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 18:45
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 312 Eddie Larry 10-Apr-17 18:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 308 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 18:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 325 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:18
unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 271 Racho 11-Apr-17 06:22
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 395 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 09:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 189 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:32
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 342 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:38
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 207 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:11
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 299 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 14:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 296 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 278 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 283 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 15:53
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 336 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:55
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 341 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 16:35
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 173 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 16:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 177 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:54
once the mistake... 272 Racho 12-Apr-17 00:03
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 372 Thunderbird 12-Apr-17 04:20
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 212 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 13:14
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 336 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 17:31
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 285 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:17
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 272 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:26
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 345 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 248 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 14:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 261 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 18:41
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 296 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 228 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 18:48
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 301 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:00
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 217 Warwick 11-Apr-17 19:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 293 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:59
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 218 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 283 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:34
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 307 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 205 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 277 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 200 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:24
science and technology...where minds come to meet 244 Racho 11-Apr-17 20:46
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 241 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 21:19
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 487 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 15:01
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 285 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:52
43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 294 Racho 12-Apr-17 20:20
Re: 43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 365 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 21:34
and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 394 Racho 12-Apr-17 22:54
Re: and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 308 Warwick 13-Apr-17 17:15
taking sides...I suppose so but 307 Racho 14-Apr-17 04:18
beating the dead horse... 406 Racho 20-Apr-17 06:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 459 Notinham 11-Apr-17 01:43


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