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Jon Ellison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Racho.
>
> If you don't mind me chiming in.
>
> The rock hardness issue isn't an issue at all, in
> that what were looking at here are tooling
> signatures.
> Some stuff is in extraordinarily hard rock, some
> less so, The hard stuff defies explanation.
> Anyway that aside..
>
> Tooling Signatures or Witness Marks.
>
> The terms "machine tools", "power tools" etc. are
> thrown around on here seemingly without proper
> regard for what they actually are, how they
> function, and more importantly what signature they
> leave behind.
>
> Three kinds of tools.
> There's more and and also grey areas, but let's
> just look at the main three for now.
>
> Class A.
> Hand tools.
> These are tools where the motive force and the
> positioning and guidance are entirely provided by
> the operator.
> Examples would be a hand saw and a sewing needle.
>
> Class B.
> Power Tools.
> These are tools where the motive force is provided
> by other than the operator, but the tool is
> positioned and guided entirely by the operator.
> Examples would be a chain saw, a wood turning
> simple lathe and an electric tooth brush.
>
> Class C.
> Machine tools.
> These are tools where both the motive force and
> the tool guidance and positioning is provided from
> a mechanical source.
> Examples would be a machine lathe or drill press.
>
> Hand tools A. Are hard work and although can be
> used with high precision if used along with
> precision measuring instruments.
> They generally do not leave repeating signatures.
>
> Power tools B. make life easier for the operator
> and can be used with precision, if like hand tools
> they are used along with precision measuring
> instruments.
> They leave precise repeating signatures in the
> micro domain, like for example a rotating wire
> brush, each wire leaving its mark repeatedly, but
> in the macro domain produce non precision, non
> repeating signatures. Like the track of a powered
> rotating wire brush moved by hand across a
> surface.
>
> Machine tools C. are often used with precision and
> repetition, they allow for precision placement of
> the tool and progression with great accuracy as
> they eliminate the human propensity to Err.
> Machine tools often do have an initial human input
> but rely on a mechanical datum external to the
> work piece to eliminate human error.
> They typically leave a high precision surface and
> exhibit a repeating and constant signature.
>
> Anyways a handle on all of the above can go some
> way to identifying the probable techniques
> employed from the various signatures and witness
> marks we see today.


This frame takes my breath away:



I don't see how that could be a hand-worked surface. The striations are straight, parallel, equally spaced, and I see no obvious segmentation. No overlap, no curves. It looks like a single machined surface. The only apparent deviation from perfect parallel is an optical illusion that's caused by the perspective from the camera being located toward the bottom of that tooled face. But when you compensate for the perspective viewpoint, it certainly looks like a smoking gun for a machined surface.

Alternatively, I'm wondering if it could be ancient troweled adhesive that once held a layer of valuable surface material that has since been lost or pilfered. There does seem to be a lot of relatively modern hacking amidst what clearly seems to be darker, older stonework.

______________________________________________________________
How can any of us ever know, when all we can do is think?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 3112 Racho 02-Apr-17 18:38
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 817 Fsbirdhouse 02-Apr-17 20:05
Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 753 Racho 04-Apr-17 14:02
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 722 Fsbirdhouse 04-Apr-17 14:51
If on purpose... 314 Racho 14-Apr-17 05:01
Re: If on purpose... 359 Origyptian 14-Apr-17 05:32
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 623 Origyptian 07-Apr-17 13:28
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 602 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 22:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 381 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 16:59
Re: B 4 : ) 574 Thunderbird 05-Apr-17 05:22
Re: B 4 : ) 552 Warwick 07-Apr-17 17:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 601 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 01:30
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 713 Warwick 07-Apr-17 18:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 793 Jon Ellison 08-Apr-17 10:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 490 Warwick 08-Apr-17 17:57
if I carried out a test... 578 Racho 09-Apr-17 02:15
Re: if I carried out a test... 525 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 08:44
I did check it out :) 413 Racho 25-Apr-17 05:59
Re: I did check it out :) 331 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 14:22
Don't even need to stop to think on this... 314 Racho 25-Apr-17 15:37
Re: Don't even need to stop to think on this... 375 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 17:20
I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 313 Racho 25-Apr-17 18:07
Re: I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 408 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 19:49
Would you agree... 358 Racho 25-Apr-17 20:29
Re: Would you agree... 395 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 21:07
Re: Would you agree... 381 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 22:54
...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 290 Racho 15-Oct-17 05:46
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 222 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 14:26
precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 290 Racho 15-Oct-17 16:49
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 258 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:20
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 273 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:35
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 275 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 03:27
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 288 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 07:58
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 249 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 09:19
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 523 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 11:03
an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 72 Racho 20-Dec-19 20:04
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 64 Martin Stower 20-Dec-19 23:47
? 57 Racho 21-Dec-19 01:25
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 65 Open mind 21-Dec-19 02:03
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 67 Thanos5150 21-Dec-19 04:19
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 69 Open mind 21-Dec-19 05:07
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 93 Thanos5150 21-Dec-19 16:25
Re: Would you agree... 581 Corpuscles 25-Apr-17 23:56
Re: if I carried out a test... 391 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:39
Re: if I carried out a test... 437 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 22:34
Re: if I carried out a test... 351 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 23:20
could not have been 402 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:34
Re: could not have been 402 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:18
Re: could not have been 434 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:29
Re: could not have been 415 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 17:59
Re: could not have been 343 Warwick 10-Apr-17 18:48
Re: could not have been 347 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:18
Re: could not have been 366 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:34
Re: could not have been 397 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:55
Re: could not have been 353 Warwick 11-Apr-17 17:29
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 378 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:13
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 484 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 397 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:56
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 390 Warwick 09-Apr-17 17:21
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 443 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:00
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 385 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 395 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:22
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 414 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 386 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:02
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 450 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:41
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 357 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 18:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 393 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 380 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:17
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 403 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:48
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 510 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 20:33
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 374 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 457 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 470 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 23:24
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 401 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 04:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 401 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 08:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 418 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:16
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 378 Thanos5150 10-Apr-17 15:25
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 362 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 416 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 386 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 365 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:54
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 367 Warwick 10-Apr-17 16:01
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 424 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:23
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 390 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 381 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:11
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 380 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:23
I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 533 Racho 08-Apr-17 16:54
Re: I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 519 Warwick 08-Apr-17 18:23
Oranges and apples... 457 Racho 09-Apr-17 00:39
Re: Oranges and apples... 422 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:59
Re: In plain sight 434 Thunderbird 10-Apr-17 19:53
It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 430 Racho 14-Apr-17 06:53
Re: It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 480 Thunderbird 15-Apr-17 01:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 413 Archae Solenhofen 09-Apr-17 16:47
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 399 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:52
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 385 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 403 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 385 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:09
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 458 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 470 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:59
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 391 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 388 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 377 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:46
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 431 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 18:45
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 400 Eddie Larry 10-Apr-17 18:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 383 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 18:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 409 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:18
unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 370 Racho 11-Apr-17 06:22
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 477 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 09:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 281 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:32
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 429 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:38
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 272 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:11
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 384 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 14:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 367 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 350 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 356 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 15:53
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 417 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:55
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 429 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 16:35
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 238 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 16:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 266 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:54
once the mistake... 358 Racho 12-Apr-17 00:03
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 459 Thunderbird 12-Apr-17 04:20
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 302 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 13:14
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 429 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 17:31
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 357 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:17
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 350 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:26
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 424 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 353 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 14:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 362 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 18:41
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 395 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 307 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 18:48
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 387 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:00
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 313 Warwick 11-Apr-17 19:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 390 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:59
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 311 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 366 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:34
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 408 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 304 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 378 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 283 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:24
science and technology...where minds come to meet 336 Racho 11-Apr-17 20:46
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 335 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 21:19
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 591 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 15:01
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 361 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:52
43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 369 Racho 12-Apr-17 20:20
Re: 43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 454 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 21:34
and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 502 Racho 12-Apr-17 22:54
Re: and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 380 Warwick 13-Apr-17 17:15
taking sides...I suppose so but 400 Racho 14-Apr-17 04:18
beating the dead horse... 515 Racho 20-Apr-17 06:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 555 Notinham 11-Apr-17 01:43


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