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Jon Ellison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Racho.
>
> If you don't mind me chiming in.
>
> The rock hardness issue isn't an issue at all, in
> that what were looking at here are tooling
> signatures.
> Some stuff is in extraordinarily hard rock, some
> less so, The hard stuff defies explanation.
> Anyway that aside..
>
> Tooling Signatures or Witness Marks.
>
> The terms "machine tools", "power tools" etc. are
> thrown around on here seemingly without proper
> regard for what they actually are, how they
> function, and more importantly what signature they
> leave behind.
>
> Three kinds of tools.
> There's more and and also grey areas, but let's
> just look at the main three for now.
>
> Class A.
> Hand tools.
> These are tools where the motive force and the
> positioning and guidance are entirely provided by
> the operator.
> Examples would be a hand saw and a sewing needle.
>
> Class B.
> Power Tools.
> These are tools where the motive force is provided
> by other than the operator, but the tool is
> positioned and guided entirely by the operator.
> Examples would be a chain saw, a wood turning
> simple lathe and an electric tooth brush.
>
> Class C.
> Machine tools.
> These are tools where both the motive force and
> the tool guidance and positioning is provided from
> a mechanical source.
> Examples would be a machine lathe or drill press.
>
> Hand tools A. Are hard work and although can be
> used with high precision if used along with
> precision measuring instruments.
> They generally do not leave repeating signatures.
>
> Power tools B. make life easier for the operator
> and can be used with precision, if like hand tools
> they are used along with precision measuring
> instruments.
> They leave precise repeating signatures in the
> micro domain, like for example a rotating wire
> brush, each wire leaving its mark repeatedly, but
> in the macro domain produce non precision, non
> repeating signatures. Like the track of a powered
> rotating wire brush moved by hand across a
> surface.
>
> Machine tools C. are often used with precision and
> repetition, they allow for precision placement of
> the tool and progression with great accuracy as
> they eliminate the human propensity to Err.
> Machine tools often do have an initial human input
> but rely on a mechanical datum external to the
> work piece to eliminate human error.
> They typically leave a high precision surface and
> exhibit a repeating and constant signature.
>
> Anyways a handle on all of the above can go some
> way to identifying the probable techniques
> employed from the various signatures and witness
> marks we see today.


This frame takes my breath away:



I don't see how that could be a hand-worked surface. The striations are straight, parallel, equally spaced, and I see no obvious segmentation. No overlap, no curves. It looks like a single machined surface. The only apparent deviation from perfect parallel is an optical illusion that's caused by the perspective from the camera being located toward the bottom of that tooled face. But when you compensate for the perspective viewpoint, it certainly looks like a smoking gun for a machined surface.

Alternatively, I'm wondering if it could be ancient troweled adhesive that once held a layer of valuable surface material that has since been lost or pilfered. There does seem to be a lot of relatively modern hacking amidst what clearly seems to be darker, older stonework.

______________________________________________________________
How can any of us ever know, when all we can do is think?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 3172 Racho 02-Apr-17 18:38
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 860 Fsbirdhouse 02-Apr-17 20:05
Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 768 Racho 04-Apr-17 14:02
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 750 Fsbirdhouse 04-Apr-17 14:51
If on purpose... 331 Racho 14-Apr-17 05:01
Re: If on purpose... 378 Origyptian 14-Apr-17 05:32
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 641 Origyptian 07-Apr-17 13:28
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 632 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 22:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 402 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 16:59
Re: B 4 : ) 599 Thunderbird 05-Apr-17 05:22
Re: B 4 : ) 575 Warwick 07-Apr-17 17:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 630 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 01:30
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 733 Warwick 07-Apr-17 18:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 818 Jon Ellison 08-Apr-17 10:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 514 Warwick 08-Apr-17 17:57
if I carried out a test... 596 Racho 09-Apr-17 02:15
Re: if I carried out a test... 544 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 08:44
I did check it out :) 452 Racho 25-Apr-17 05:59
Re: I did check it out :) 353 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 14:22
Don't even need to stop to think on this... 334 Racho 25-Apr-17 15:37
Re: Don't even need to stop to think on this... 397 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 17:20
I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 333 Racho 25-Apr-17 18:07
Re: I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 428 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 19:49
Would you agree... 378 Racho 25-Apr-17 20:29
Re: Would you agree... 415 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 21:07
Re: Would you agree... 402 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 22:54
...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 310 Racho 15-Oct-17 05:46
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 240 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 14:26
precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 309 Racho 15-Oct-17 16:49
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 278 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:20
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 291 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:35
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 295 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 03:27
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 305 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 07:58
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 269 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 09:19
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 552 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 11:03
an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 82 Racho 20-Dec-19 20:04
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 79 Martin Stower 20-Dec-19 23:47
? 67 Racho 21-Dec-19 01:25
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 78 Open mind 21-Dec-19 02:03
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 78 Thanos5150 21-Dec-19 04:19
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 81 Open mind 21-Dec-19 05:07
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 113 Thanos5150 21-Dec-19 16:25
Re: Would you agree... 604 Corpuscles 25-Apr-17 23:56
Re: if I carried out a test... 411 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:39
Re: if I carried out a test... 456 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 22:34
Re: if I carried out a test... 368 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 23:20
could not have been 415 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:34
Re: could not have been 421 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:18
Re: could not have been 459 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:29
Re: could not have been 434 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 17:59
Re: could not have been 361 Warwick 10-Apr-17 18:48
Re: could not have been 368 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:18
Re: could not have been 385 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:34
Re: could not have been 424 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:55
Re: could not have been 371 Warwick 11-Apr-17 17:29
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 398 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:13
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 506 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 415 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:56
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 407 Warwick 09-Apr-17 17:21
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 470 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:00
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 400 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 427 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:22
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 437 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 414 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:02
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 474 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:41
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 375 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 18:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 413 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 399 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:17
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 427 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:48
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 529 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 20:33
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 394 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 472 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 499 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 23:24
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 421 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 04:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 430 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 08:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 442 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:16
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 402 Thanos5150 10-Apr-17 15:25
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 377 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 434 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 407 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 387 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:54
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 382 Warwick 10-Apr-17 16:01
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 436 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:23
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 411 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 415 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:11
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 396 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:23
I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 554 Racho 08-Apr-17 16:54
Re: I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 545 Warwick 08-Apr-17 18:23
Oranges and apples... 470 Racho 09-Apr-17 00:39
Re: Oranges and apples... 440 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:59
Re: In plain sight 462 Thunderbird 10-Apr-17 19:53
It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 455 Racho 14-Apr-17 06:53
Re: It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 502 Thunderbird 15-Apr-17 01:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 431 Archae Solenhofen 09-Apr-17 16:47
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 422 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:52
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 404 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 423 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 404 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:09
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 487 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 499 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:59
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 410 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 416 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 413 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:46
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 457 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 18:45
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 423 Eddie Larry 10-Apr-17 18:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 401 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 18:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 428 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:18
unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 386 Racho 11-Apr-17 06:22
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 496 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 09:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 297 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:32
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 451 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:38
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 291 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:11
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 404 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 14:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 386 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 369 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 374 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 15:53
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 440 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:55
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 446 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 16:35
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 255 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 16:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 284 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:54
once the mistake... 372 Racho 12-Apr-17 00:03
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 481 Thunderbird 12-Apr-17 04:20
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 317 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 13:14
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 453 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 17:31
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 375 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:17
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 365 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:26
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 445 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 369 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 14:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 380 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 18:41
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 418 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 325 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 18:48
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 407 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:00
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 331 Warwick 11-Apr-17 19:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 409 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:59
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 327 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 391 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:34
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 428 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 321 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 397 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 300 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:24
science and technology...where minds come to meet 348 Racho 11-Apr-17 20:46
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 355 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 21:19
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 615 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 15:01
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 380 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:52
43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 395 Racho 12-Apr-17 20:20
Re: 43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 478 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 21:34
and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 525 Racho 12-Apr-17 22:54
Re: and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 398 Warwick 13-Apr-17 17:15
taking sides...I suppose so but 423 Racho 14-Apr-17 04:18
beating the dead horse... 540 Racho 20-Apr-17 06:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 573 Notinham 11-Apr-17 01:43


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