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Jon Ellison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Racho.
>
> If you don't mind me chiming in.
>
> The rock hardness issue isn't an issue at all, in
> that what were looking at here are tooling
> signatures.
> Some stuff is in extraordinarily hard rock, some
> less so, The hard stuff defies explanation.
> Anyway that aside..
>
> Tooling Signatures or Witness Marks.
>
> The terms "machine tools", "power tools" etc. are
> thrown around on here seemingly without proper
> regard for what they actually are, how they
> function, and more importantly what signature they
> leave behind.
>
> Three kinds of tools.
> There's more and and also grey areas, but let's
> just look at the main three for now.
>
> Class A.
> Hand tools.
> These are tools where the motive force and the
> positioning and guidance are entirely provided by
> the operator.
> Examples would be a hand saw and a sewing needle.
>
> Class B.
> Power Tools.
> These are tools where the motive force is provided
> by other than the operator, but the tool is
> positioned and guided entirely by the operator.
> Examples would be a chain saw, a wood turning
> simple lathe and an electric tooth brush.
>
> Class C.
> Machine tools.
> These are tools where both the motive force and
> the tool guidance and positioning is provided from
> a mechanical source.
> Examples would be a machine lathe or drill press.
>
> Hand tools A. Are hard work and although can be
> used with high precision if used along with
> precision measuring instruments.
> They generally do not leave repeating signatures.
>
> Power tools B. make life easier for the operator
> and can be used with precision, if like hand tools
> they are used along with precision measuring
> instruments.
> They leave precise repeating signatures in the
> micro domain, like for example a rotating wire
> brush, each wire leaving its mark repeatedly, but
> in the macro domain produce non precision, non
> repeating signatures. Like the track of a powered
> rotating wire brush moved by hand across a
> surface.
>
> Machine tools C. are often used with precision and
> repetition, they allow for precision placement of
> the tool and progression with great accuracy as
> they eliminate the human propensity to Err.
> Machine tools often do have an initial human input
> but rely on a mechanical datum external to the
> work piece to eliminate human error.
> They typically leave a high precision surface and
> exhibit a repeating and constant signature.
>
> Anyways a handle on all of the above can go some
> way to identifying the probable techniques
> employed from the various signatures and witness
> marks we see today.


This frame takes my breath away:



I don't see how that could be a hand-worked surface. The striations are straight, parallel, equally spaced, and I see no obvious segmentation. No overlap, no curves. It looks like a single machined surface. The only apparent deviation from perfect parallel is an optical illusion that's caused by the perspective from the camera being located toward the bottom of that tooled face. But when you compensate for the perspective viewpoint, it certainly looks like a smoking gun for a machined surface.

Alternatively, I'm wondering if it could be ancient troweled adhesive that once held a layer of valuable surface material that has since been lost or pilfered. There does seem to be a lot of relatively modern hacking amidst what clearly seems to be darker, older stonework.

______________________________________________________________
How can any of us ever know, when all we can do is think?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 2652 Racho 02-Apr-17 18:38
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 679 Fsbirdhouse 02-Apr-17 20:05
Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 599 Racho 04-Apr-17 14:02
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 598 Fsbirdhouse 04-Apr-17 14:51
If on purpose... 210 Racho 14-Apr-17 05:01
Re: If on purpose... 242 Origyptian 14-Apr-17 05:32
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 510 Origyptian 07-Apr-17 13:28
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 454 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 22:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 295 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 16:59
Re: B 4 : ) 478 Thunderbird 05-Apr-17 05:22
Re: B 4 : ) 412 Warwick 07-Apr-17 17:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 469 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 01:30
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 605 Warwick 07-Apr-17 18:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 685 Jon Ellison 08-Apr-17 10:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 372 Warwick 08-Apr-17 17:57
if I carried out a test... 472 Racho 09-Apr-17 02:15
Re: if I carried out a test... 427 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 08:44
I did check it out :) 319 Racho 25-Apr-17 05:59
Re: I did check it out :) 216 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 14:22
Don't even need to stop to think on this... 225 Racho 25-Apr-17 15:37
Re: Don't even need to stop to think on this... 262 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 17:20
I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 230 Racho 25-Apr-17 18:07
Re: I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 293 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 19:49
Would you agree... 243 Racho 25-Apr-17 20:29
Re: Would you agree... 296 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 21:07
Re: Would you agree... 256 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 22:54
...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 195 Racho 15-Oct-17 05:46
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 143 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 14:26
precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 200 Racho 15-Oct-17 16:49
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 179 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:20
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 193 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:35
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 178 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 03:27
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 186 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 07:58
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 165 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 09:19
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 386 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 11:03
Re: Would you agree... 446 Corpuscles 25-Apr-17 23:56
Re: if I carried out a test... 299 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:39
Re: if I carried out a test... 355 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 22:34
Re: if I carried out a test... 263 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 23:20
could not have been 313 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:34
Re: could not have been 310 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:18
Re: could not have been 332 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:29
Re: could not have been 323 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 17:59
Re: could not have been 253 Warwick 10-Apr-17 18:48
Re: could not have been 251 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:18
Re: could not have been 275 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:34
Re: could not have been 312 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:55
Re: could not have been 264 Warwick 11-Apr-17 17:29
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 266 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:13
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 367 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 313 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:56
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 285 Warwick 09-Apr-17 17:21
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 328 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:00
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 287 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 283 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:22
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 322 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 286 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:02
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 336 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:41
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 274 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 18:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 296 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 288 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:17
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 278 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:48
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 412 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 20:33
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 265 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 376 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 375 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 23:24
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 307 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 04:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 309 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 08:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 273 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:16
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 270 Thanos5150 10-Apr-17 15:25
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 262 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 326 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 278 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 281 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:54
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 279 Warwick 10-Apr-17 16:01
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 333 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:23
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 290 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 290 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:11
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 272 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:23
I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 421 Racho 08-Apr-17 16:54
Re: I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 419 Warwick 08-Apr-17 18:23
Oranges and apples... 354 Racho 09-Apr-17 00:39
Re: Oranges and apples... 310 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:59
Re: In plain sight 331 Thunderbird 10-Apr-17 19:53
It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 308 Racho 14-Apr-17 06:53
Re: It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 363 Thunderbird 15-Apr-17 01:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 306 Archae Solenhofen 09-Apr-17 16:47
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 292 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:52
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 294 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 306 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 287 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:09
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 339 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 356 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:59
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 292 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 280 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 267 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:46
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 339 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 18:45
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 303 Eddie Larry 10-Apr-17 18:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 298 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 18:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 312 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:18
unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 256 Racho 11-Apr-17 06:22
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 377 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 09:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 177 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:32
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 332 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:38
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 198 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:11
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 287 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 14:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 285 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 267 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 274 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 15:53
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 323 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:55
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 329 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 16:35
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 166 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 16:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 166 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:54
once the mistake... 261 Racho 12-Apr-17 00:03
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 360 Thunderbird 12-Apr-17 04:20
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 201 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 13:14
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 321 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 17:31
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 275 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:17
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 264 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:26
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 331 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 233 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 14:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 249 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 18:41
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 287 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 217 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 18:48
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 288 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:00
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 206 Warwick 11-Apr-17 19:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 283 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:59
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 207 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 272 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:34
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 295 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 195 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 267 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 192 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:24
science and technology...where minds come to meet 233 Racho 11-Apr-17 20:46
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 231 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 21:19
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 474 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 15:01
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 272 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:52
43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 280 Racho 12-Apr-17 20:20
Re: 43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 353 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 21:34
and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 380 Racho 12-Apr-17 22:54
Re: and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 299 Warwick 13-Apr-17 17:15
taking sides...I suppose so but 295 Racho 14-Apr-17 04:18
beating the dead horse... 383 Racho 20-Apr-17 06:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 444 Notinham 11-Apr-17 01:43


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