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Jon Ellison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Racho.
>
> If you don't mind me chiming in.
>
> The rock hardness issue isn't an issue at all, in
> that what were looking at here are tooling
> signatures.
> Some stuff is in extraordinarily hard rock, some
> less so, The hard stuff defies explanation.
> Anyway that aside..
>
> Tooling Signatures or Witness Marks.
>
> The terms "machine tools", "power tools" etc. are
> thrown around on here seemingly without proper
> regard for what they actually are, how they
> function, and more importantly what signature they
> leave behind.
>
> Three kinds of tools.
> There's more and and also grey areas, but let's
> just look at the main three for now.
>
> Class A.
> Hand tools.
> These are tools where the motive force and the
> positioning and guidance are entirely provided by
> the operator.
> Examples would be a hand saw and a sewing needle.
>
> Class B.
> Power Tools.
> These are tools where the motive force is provided
> by other than the operator, but the tool is
> positioned and guided entirely by the operator.
> Examples would be a chain saw, a wood turning
> simple lathe and an electric tooth brush.
>
> Class C.
> Machine tools.
> These are tools where both the motive force and
> the tool guidance and positioning is provided from
> a mechanical source.
> Examples would be a machine lathe or drill press.
>
> Hand tools A. Are hard work and although can be
> used with high precision if used along with
> precision measuring instruments.
> They generally do not leave repeating signatures.
>
> Power tools B. make life easier for the operator
> and can be used with precision, if like hand tools
> they are used along with precision measuring
> instruments.
> They leave precise repeating signatures in the
> micro domain, like for example a rotating wire
> brush, each wire leaving its mark repeatedly, but
> in the macro domain produce non precision, non
> repeating signatures. Like the track of a powered
> rotating wire brush moved by hand across a
> surface.
>
> Machine tools C. are often used with precision and
> repetition, they allow for precision placement of
> the tool and progression with great accuracy as
> they eliminate the human propensity to Err.
> Machine tools often do have an initial human input
> but rely on a mechanical datum external to the
> work piece to eliminate human error.
> They typically leave a high precision surface and
> exhibit a repeating and constant signature.
>
> Anyways a handle on all of the above can go some
> way to identifying the probable techniques
> employed from the various signatures and witness
> marks we see today.


This frame takes my breath away:



I don't see how that could be a hand-worked surface. The striations are straight, parallel, equally spaced, and I see no obvious segmentation. No overlap, no curves. It looks like a single machined surface. The only apparent deviation from perfect parallel is an optical illusion that's caused by the perspective from the camera being located toward the bottom of that tooled face. But when you compensate for the perspective viewpoint, it certainly looks like a smoking gun for a machined surface.

Alternatively, I'm wondering if it could be ancient troweled adhesive that once held a layer of valuable surface material that has since been lost or pilfered. There does seem to be a lot of relatively modern hacking amidst what clearly seems to be darker, older stonework.

______________________________________________________________
How can any of us ever know, when all we can do is think?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 2772 Racho 02-Apr-17 18:38
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 725 Fsbirdhouse 02-Apr-17 20:05
Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 664 Racho 04-Apr-17 14:02
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 649 Fsbirdhouse 04-Apr-17 14:51
If on purpose... 259 Racho 14-Apr-17 05:01
Re: If on purpose... 288 Origyptian 14-Apr-17 05:32
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 564 Origyptian 07-Apr-17 13:28
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 528 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 22:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 332 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 16:59
Re: B 4 : ) 520 Thunderbird 05-Apr-17 05:22
Re: B 4 : ) 474 Warwick 07-Apr-17 17:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 536 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 01:30
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 665 Warwick 07-Apr-17 18:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 726 Jon Ellison 08-Apr-17 10:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 414 Warwick 08-Apr-17 17:57
if I carried out a test... 527 Racho 09-Apr-17 02:15
Re: if I carried out a test... 475 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 08:44
I did check it out :) 364 Racho 25-Apr-17 05:59
Re: I did check it out :) 262 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 14:22
Don't even need to stop to think on this... 268 Racho 25-Apr-17 15:37
Re: Don't even need to stop to think on this... 326 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 17:20
I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 269 Racho 25-Apr-17 18:07
Re: I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 342 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 19:49
Would you agree... 300 Racho 25-Apr-17 20:29
Re: Would you agree... 345 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 21:07
Re: Would you agree... 319 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 22:54
...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 226 Racho 15-Oct-17 05:46
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 172 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 14:26
precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 230 Racho 15-Oct-17 16:49
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 208 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:20
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 224 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:35
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 212 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 03:27
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 218 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 07:58
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 195 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 09:19
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 449 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 11:03
Re: Would you agree... 511 Corpuscles 25-Apr-17 23:56
Re: if I carried out a test... 346 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:39
Re: if I carried out a test... 395 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 22:34
Re: if I carried out a test... 300 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 23:20
could not have been 357 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:34
Re: could not have been 359 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:18
Re: could not have been 380 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:29
Re: could not have been 372 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 17:59
Re: could not have been 297 Warwick 10-Apr-17 18:48
Re: could not have been 303 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:18
Re: could not have been 322 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:34
Re: could not have been 351 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:55
Re: could not have been 302 Warwick 11-Apr-17 17:29
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 313 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:13
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 423 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 353 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:56
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 333 Warwick 09-Apr-17 17:21
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 385 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:00
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 332 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 327 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:22
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 363 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 329 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:02
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 390 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:41
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 316 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 18:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 338 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 330 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:17
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 335 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:48
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 465 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 20:33
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 308 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 416 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 424 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 23:24
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 357 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 04:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 349 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 08:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 339 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:16
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 318 Thanos5150 10-Apr-17 15:25
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 306 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 369 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 328 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 322 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:54
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 327 Warwick 10-Apr-17 16:01
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 375 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:23
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 335 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 334 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:11
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 325 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:23
I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 475 Racho 08-Apr-17 16:54
Re: I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 477 Warwick 08-Apr-17 18:23
Oranges and apples... 410 Racho 09-Apr-17 00:39
Re: Oranges and apples... 358 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:59
Re: In plain sight 383 Thunderbird 10-Apr-17 19:53
It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 367 Racho 14-Apr-17 06:53
Re: It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 417 Thunderbird 15-Apr-17 01:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 358 Archae Solenhofen 09-Apr-17 16:47
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 339 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:52
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 342 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 347 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 331 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:09
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 397 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 411 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:59
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 334 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 334 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 309 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:46
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 385 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 18:45
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 343 Eddie Larry 10-Apr-17 18:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 341 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 18:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 355 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:18
unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 313 Racho 11-Apr-17 06:22
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 427 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 09:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 237 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:32
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 383 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:38
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 227 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:11
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 331 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 14:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 324 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 307 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 312 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 15:53
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 369 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:55
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 373 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 16:35
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 194 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 16:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 208 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:54
once the mistake... 309 Racho 12-Apr-17 00:03
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 406 Thunderbird 12-Apr-17 04:20
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 257 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 13:14
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 374 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 17:31
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 314 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:17
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 306 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:26
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 380 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 291 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 14:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 312 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 18:41
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 330 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 260 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 18:48
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 336 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:00
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 257 Warwick 11-Apr-17 19:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 331 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:59
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 255 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 317 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:34
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 343 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 249 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 311 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 236 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:24
science and technology...where minds come to meet 272 Racho 11-Apr-17 20:46
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 274 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 21:19
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 533 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 15:01
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 316 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:52
43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 324 Racho 12-Apr-17 20:20
Re: 43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 399 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 21:34
and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 438 Racho 12-Apr-17 22:54
Re: and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 336 Warwick 13-Apr-17 17:15
taking sides...I suppose so but 349 Racho 14-Apr-17 04:18
beating the dead horse... 453 Racho 20-Apr-17 06:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 504 Notinham 11-Apr-17 01:43


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