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Jon Ellison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Racho.
>
> If you don't mind me chiming in.
>
> The rock hardness issue isn't an issue at all, in
> that what were looking at here are tooling
> signatures.
> Some stuff is in extraordinarily hard rock, some
> less so, The hard stuff defies explanation.
> Anyway that aside..
>
> Tooling Signatures or Witness Marks.
>
> The terms "machine tools", "power tools" etc. are
> thrown around on here seemingly without proper
> regard for what they actually are, how they
> function, and more importantly what signature they
> leave behind.
>
> Three kinds of tools.
> There's more and and also grey areas, but let's
> just look at the main three for now.
>
> Class A.
> Hand tools.
> These are tools where the motive force and the
> positioning and guidance are entirely provided by
> the operator.
> Examples would be a hand saw and a sewing needle.
>
> Class B.
> Power Tools.
> These are tools where the motive force is provided
> by other than the operator, but the tool is
> positioned and guided entirely by the operator.
> Examples would be a chain saw, a wood turning
> simple lathe and an electric tooth brush.
>
> Class C.
> Machine tools.
> These are tools where both the motive force and
> the tool guidance and positioning is provided from
> a mechanical source.
> Examples would be a machine lathe or drill press.
>
> Hand tools A. Are hard work and although can be
> used with high precision if used along with
> precision measuring instruments.
> They generally do not leave repeating signatures.
>
> Power tools B. make life easier for the operator
> and can be used with precision, if like hand tools
> they are used along with precision measuring
> instruments.
> They leave precise repeating signatures in the
> micro domain, like for example a rotating wire
> brush, each wire leaving its mark repeatedly, but
> in the macro domain produce non precision, non
> repeating signatures. Like the track of a powered
> rotating wire brush moved by hand across a
> surface.
>
> Machine tools C. are often used with precision and
> repetition, they allow for precision placement of
> the tool and progression with great accuracy as
> they eliminate the human propensity to Err.
> Machine tools often do have an initial human input
> but rely on a mechanical datum external to the
> work piece to eliminate human error.
> They typically leave a high precision surface and
> exhibit a repeating and constant signature.
>
> Anyways a handle on all of the above can go some
> way to identifying the probable techniques
> employed from the various signatures and witness
> marks we see today.


This frame takes my breath away:



I don't see how that could be a hand-worked surface. The striations are straight, parallel, equally spaced, and I see no obvious segmentation. No overlap, no curves. It looks like a single machined surface. The only apparent deviation from perfect parallel is an optical illusion that's caused by the perspective from the camera being located toward the bottom of that tooled face. But when you compensate for the perspective viewpoint, it certainly looks like a smoking gun for a machined surface.

Alternatively, I'm wondering if it could be ancient troweled adhesive that once held a layer of valuable surface material that has since been lost or pilfered. There does seem to be a lot of relatively modern hacking amidst what clearly seems to be darker, older stonework.

______________________________________________________________
How can any of us ever know, when all we can do is think?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 2717 Racho 02-Apr-17 18:38
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 708 Fsbirdhouse 02-Apr-17 20:05
Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 634 Racho 04-Apr-17 14:02
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 633 Fsbirdhouse 04-Apr-17 14:51
If on purpose... 243 Racho 14-Apr-17 05:01
Re: If on purpose... 274 Origyptian 14-Apr-17 05:32
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 539 Origyptian 07-Apr-17 13:28
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 503 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 22:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 320 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 16:59
Re: B 4 : ) 502 Thunderbird 05-Apr-17 05:22
Re: B 4 : ) 453 Warwick 07-Apr-17 17:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 510 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 01:30
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 640 Warwick 07-Apr-17 18:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 711 Jon Ellison 08-Apr-17 10:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 395 Warwick 08-Apr-17 17:57
if I carried out a test... 504 Racho 09-Apr-17 02:15
Re: if I carried out a test... 457 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 08:44
I did check it out :) 348 Racho 25-Apr-17 05:59
Re: I did check it out :) 245 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 14:22
Don't even need to stop to think on this... 254 Racho 25-Apr-17 15:37
Re: Don't even need to stop to think on this... 309 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 17:20
I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 257 Racho 25-Apr-17 18:07
Re: I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 320 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 19:49
Would you agree... 281 Racho 25-Apr-17 20:29
Re: Would you agree... 331 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 21:07
Re: Would you agree... 301 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 22:54
...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 212 Racho 15-Oct-17 05:46
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 161 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 14:26
precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 220 Racho 15-Oct-17 16:49
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 198 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:20
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 214 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:35
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 200 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 03:27
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 208 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 07:58
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 185 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 09:19
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 428 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 11:03
Re: Would you agree... 484 Corpuscles 25-Apr-17 23:56
Re: if I carried out a test... 329 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:39
Re: if I carried out a test... 381 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 22:34
Re: if I carried out a test... 288 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 23:20
could not have been 344 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:34
Re: could not have been 339 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:18
Re: could not have been 365 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:29
Re: could not have been 350 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 17:59
Re: could not have been 283 Warwick 10-Apr-17 18:48
Re: could not have been 279 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:18
Re: could not have been 308 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:34
Re: could not have been 336 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:55
Re: could not have been 285 Warwick 11-Apr-17 17:29
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 296 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:13
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 404 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 343 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:56
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 310 Warwick 09-Apr-17 17:21
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 358 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:00
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 318 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 306 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:22
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 350 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 306 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:02
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 373 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:41
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 302 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 18:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 322 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 317 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:17
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 320 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:48
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 438 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 20:33
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 291 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 402 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 407 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 23:24
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 336 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 04:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 332 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 08:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 314 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:16
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 302 Thanos5150 10-Apr-17 15:25
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 290 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 358 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 308 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 310 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:54
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 313 Warwick 10-Apr-17 16:01
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 359 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:23
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 322 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 318 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:11
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 308 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:23
I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 454 Racho 08-Apr-17 16:54
Re: I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 458 Warwick 08-Apr-17 18:23
Oranges and apples... 384 Racho 09-Apr-17 00:39
Re: Oranges and apples... 338 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:59
Re: In plain sight 370 Thunderbird 10-Apr-17 19:53
It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 342 Racho 14-Apr-17 06:53
Re: It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 399 Thunderbird 15-Apr-17 01:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 334 Archae Solenhofen 09-Apr-17 16:47
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 324 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:52
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 325 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 334 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 313 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:09
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 372 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 392 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:59
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 321 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 316 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 294 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:46
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 366 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 18:45
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 330 Eddie Larry 10-Apr-17 18:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 325 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 18:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 341 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:18
unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 292 Racho 11-Apr-17 06:22
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 409 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 09:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 224 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:32
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 359 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:38
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 216 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:11
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 316 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 14:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 312 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 296 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 300 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 15:53
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 350 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:55
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 363 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 16:35
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 186 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 16:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 194 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:54
once the mistake... 293 Racho 12-Apr-17 00:03
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 389 Thunderbird 12-Apr-17 04:20
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 237 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 13:14
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 355 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 17:31
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 303 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:17
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 292 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:26
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 357 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 275 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 14:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 282 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 18:41
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 313 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 246 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 18:48
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 319 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:00
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 241 Warwick 11-Apr-17 19:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 317 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:59
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 235 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 298 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:34
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 326 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 228 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 292 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 220 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:24
science and technology...where minds come to meet 257 Racho 11-Apr-17 20:46
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 257 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 21:19
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 509 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 15:01
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 298 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:52
43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 308 Racho 12-Apr-17 20:20
Re: 43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 378 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 21:34
and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 415 Racho 12-Apr-17 22:54
Re: and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 325 Warwick 13-Apr-17 17:15
taking sides...I suppose so but 322 Racho 14-Apr-17 04:18
beating the dead horse... 423 Racho 20-Apr-17 06:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 483 Notinham 11-Apr-17 01:43


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