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Hi Racho.

If you don't mind me chiming in.

The rock hardness issue isn't an issue at all, in that what were looking at here are tooling signatures.
Some stuff is in extraordinarily hard rock, some less so, The hard stuff defies explanation.
Anyway that aside..

Tooling Signatures or Witness Marks.

The terms "machine tools", "power tools" etc. are thrown around on here seemingly without proper regard for what they actually are, how they function, and more importantly what signature they leave behind.

Three kinds of tools.
There's more and and also grey areas, but let's just look at the main three for now.

Class A.
Hand tools.
These are tools where the motive force and the positioning and guidance are entirely provided by the operator.
Examples would be a hand saw and a sewing needle.

Class B.
Power Tools.
These are tools where the motive force is provided by other than the operator, but the tool is positioned and guided entirely by the operator.
Examples would be a chain saw, a wood turning simple lathe and an electric tooth brush.

Class C.
Machine tools.
These are tools where both the motive force and the tool guidance and positioning is provided from a mechanical source.
Examples would be a machine lathe or drill press.

Hand tools A. Are hard work and although can be used with high precision if used along with precision measuring instruments.
They generally do not leave repeating signatures.

Power tools B. make life easier for the operator and can be used with precision, if like hand tools they are used along with precision measuring instruments.
They leave precise repeating signatures in the micro domain, like for example a rotating wire brush, each wire leaving its mark repeatedly, but in the macro domain produce non precision, non repeating signatures. Like the track of a powered rotating wire brush moved by hand across a surface.

Machine tools C. are often used with precision and repetition, they allow for precision placement of the tool and progression with great accuracy as they eliminate the human propensity to Err.
Machine tools often do have an initial human input but rely on a mechanical datum external to the work piece to eliminate human error.
They typically leave a high precision surface and exhibit a repeating and constant signature.

Anyways a handle on all of the above can go some way to identifying the probable techniques employed from the various signatures and witness marks we see today.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 2672 Racho 02-Apr-17 18:38
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 691 Fsbirdhouse 02-Apr-17 20:05
Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 612 Racho 04-Apr-17 14:02
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 608 Fsbirdhouse 04-Apr-17 14:51
If on purpose... 219 Racho 14-Apr-17 05:01
Re: If on purpose... 250 Origyptian 14-Apr-17 05:32
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 520 Origyptian 07-Apr-17 13:28
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 471 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 22:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 303 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 16:59
Re: B 4 : ) 484 Thunderbird 05-Apr-17 05:22
Re: B 4 : ) 426 Warwick 07-Apr-17 17:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 483 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 01:30
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 616 Warwick 07-Apr-17 18:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 689 Jon Ellison 08-Apr-17 10:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 378 Warwick 08-Apr-17 17:57
if I carried out a test... 483 Racho 09-Apr-17 02:15
Re: if I carried out a test... 437 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 08:44
I did check it out :) 326 Racho 25-Apr-17 05:59
Re: I did check it out :) 225 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 14:22
Don't even need to stop to think on this... 231 Racho 25-Apr-17 15:37
Re: Don't even need to stop to think on this... 269 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 17:20
I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 239 Racho 25-Apr-17 18:07
Re: I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 302 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 19:49
Would you agree... 251 Racho 25-Apr-17 20:29
Re: Would you agree... 306 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 21:07
Re: Would you agree... 273 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 22:54
...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 201 Racho 15-Oct-17 05:46
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 150 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 14:26
precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 205 Racho 15-Oct-17 16:49
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 184 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:20
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 198 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:35
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 185 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 03:27
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 193 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 07:58
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 175 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 09:19
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 398 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 11:03
Re: Would you agree... 456 Corpuscles 25-Apr-17 23:56
Re: if I carried out a test... 306 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:39
Re: if I carried out a test... 362 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 22:34
Re: if I carried out a test... 271 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 23:20
could not have been 320 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:34
Re: could not have been 320 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:18
Re: could not have been 339 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:29
Re: could not have been 332 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 17:59
Re: could not have been 265 Warwick 10-Apr-17 18:48
Re: could not have been 256 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:18
Re: could not have been 283 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:34
Re: could not have been 317 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:55
Re: could not have been 270 Warwick 11-Apr-17 17:29
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 271 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:13
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 376 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 318 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:56
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 295 Warwick 09-Apr-17 17:21
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 337 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:00
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 293 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 287 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:22
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 328 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 289 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:02
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 348 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:41
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 282 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 18:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 302 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 298 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:17
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 285 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:48
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 419 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 20:33
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 270 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 386 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 384 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 23:24
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 317 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 04:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 315 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 08:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 280 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:16
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 277 Thanos5150 10-Apr-17 15:25
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 266 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 332 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 284 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 289 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:54
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 283 Warwick 10-Apr-17 16:01
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 341 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:23
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 299 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 297 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:11
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 281 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:23
I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 429 Racho 08-Apr-17 16:54
Re: I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 429 Warwick 08-Apr-17 18:23
Oranges and apples... 365 Racho 09-Apr-17 00:39
Re: Oranges and apples... 317 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:59
Re: In plain sight 346 Thunderbird 10-Apr-17 19:53
It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 314 Racho 14-Apr-17 06:53
Re: It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 375 Thunderbird 15-Apr-17 01:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 311 Archae Solenhofen 09-Apr-17 16:47
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 300 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:52
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 303 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 312 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 292 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:09
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 346 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 368 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:59
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 302 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 288 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 276 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:46
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 345 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 18:45
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 310 Eddie Larry 10-Apr-17 18:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 305 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 18:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 317 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:18
unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 265 Racho 11-Apr-17 06:22
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 393 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 09:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 184 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:32
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 337 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:38
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 203 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:11
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 295 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 14:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 292 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 276 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 281 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 15:53
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 331 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:55
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 335 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 16:35
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 170 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 16:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 175 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:54
once the mistake... 265 Racho 12-Apr-17 00:03
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 367 Thunderbird 12-Apr-17 04:20
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 210 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 13:14
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 330 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 17:31
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 283 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:17
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 271 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:26
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 340 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 240 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 14:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 255 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 18:41
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 293 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 225 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 18:48
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 297 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:00
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 213 Warwick 11-Apr-17 19:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 290 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:59
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 214 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 278 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:34
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 303 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 201 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 274 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 197 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:24
science and technology...where minds come to meet 240 Racho 11-Apr-17 20:46
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 238 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 21:19
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 481 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 15:01
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 279 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:52
43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 287 Racho 12-Apr-17 20:20
Re: 43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 359 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 21:34
and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 388 Racho 12-Apr-17 22:54
Re: and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 305 Warwick 13-Apr-17 17:15
taking sides...I suppose so but 300 Racho 14-Apr-17 04:18
beating the dead horse... 398 Racho 20-Apr-17 06:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 456 Notinham 11-Apr-17 01:43


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