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Hi Racho.

If you don't mind me chiming in.

The rock hardness issue isn't an issue at all, in that what were looking at here are tooling signatures.
Some stuff is in extraordinarily hard rock, some less so, The hard stuff defies explanation.
Anyway that aside..

Tooling Signatures or Witness Marks.

The terms "machine tools", "power tools" etc. are thrown around on here seemingly without proper regard for what they actually are, how they function, and more importantly what signature they leave behind.

Three kinds of tools.
There's more and and also grey areas, but let's just look at the main three for now.

Class A.
Hand tools.
These are tools where the motive force and the positioning and guidance are entirely provided by the operator.
Examples would be a hand saw and a sewing needle.

Class B.
Power Tools.
These are tools where the motive force is provided by other than the operator, but the tool is positioned and guided entirely by the operator.
Examples would be a chain saw, a wood turning simple lathe and an electric tooth brush.

Class C.
Machine tools.
These are tools where both the motive force and the tool guidance and positioning is provided from a mechanical source.
Examples would be a machine lathe or drill press.

Hand tools A. Are hard work and although can be used with high precision if used along with precision measuring instruments.
They generally do not leave repeating signatures.

Power tools B. make life easier for the operator and can be used with precision, if like hand tools they are used along with precision measuring instruments.
They leave precise repeating signatures in the micro domain, like for example a rotating wire brush, each wire leaving its mark repeatedly, but in the macro domain produce non precision, non repeating signatures. Like the track of a powered rotating wire brush moved by hand across a surface.

Machine tools C. are often used with precision and repetition, they allow for precision placement of the tool and progression with great accuracy as they eliminate the human propensity to Err.
Machine tools often do have an initial human input but rely on a mechanical datum external to the work piece to eliminate human error.
They typically leave a high precision surface and exhibit a repeating and constant signature.

Anyways a handle on all of the above can go some way to identifying the probable techniques employed from the various signatures and witness marks we see today.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 2649 Racho 02-Apr-17 18:38
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 678 Fsbirdhouse 02-Apr-17 20:05
Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 598 Racho 04-Apr-17 14:02
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 597 Fsbirdhouse 04-Apr-17 14:51
If on purpose... 209 Racho 14-Apr-17 05:01
Re: If on purpose... 241 Origyptian 14-Apr-17 05:32
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 508 Origyptian 07-Apr-17 13:28
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 451 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 22:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 293 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 16:59
Re: B 4 : ) 476 Thunderbird 05-Apr-17 05:22
Re: B 4 : ) 408 Warwick 07-Apr-17 17:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 467 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 01:30
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 603 Warwick 07-Apr-17 18:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 683 Jon Ellison 08-Apr-17 10:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 369 Warwick 08-Apr-17 17:57
if I carried out a test... 470 Racho 09-Apr-17 02:15
Re: if I carried out a test... 426 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 08:44
I did check it out :) 316 Racho 25-Apr-17 05:59
Re: I did check it out :) 214 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 14:22
Don't even need to stop to think on this... 224 Racho 25-Apr-17 15:37
Re: Don't even need to stop to think on this... 260 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 17:20
I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 228 Racho 25-Apr-17 18:07
Re: I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 291 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 19:49
Would you agree... 240 Racho 25-Apr-17 20:29
Re: Would you agree... 295 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 21:07
Re: Would you agree... 254 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 22:54
...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 194 Racho 15-Oct-17 05:46
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 141 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 14:26
precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 198 Racho 15-Oct-17 16:49
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 178 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:20
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 192 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:35
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 178 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 03:27
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 185 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 07:58
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 164 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 09:19
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 382 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 11:03
Re: Would you agree... 445 Corpuscles 25-Apr-17 23:56
Re: if I carried out a test... 296 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:39
Re: if I carried out a test... 353 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 22:34
Re: if I carried out a test... 262 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 23:20
could not have been 312 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:34
Re: could not have been 306 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:18
Re: could not have been 330 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:29
Re: could not have been 322 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 17:59
Re: could not have been 252 Warwick 10-Apr-17 18:48
Re: could not have been 249 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:18
Re: could not have been 273 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:34
Re: could not have been 308 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:55
Re: could not have been 262 Warwick 11-Apr-17 17:29
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 265 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:13
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 366 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 311 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:56
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 285 Warwick 09-Apr-17 17:21
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 326 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:00
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 285 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 281 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:22
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 320 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 282 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:02
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 335 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:41
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 274 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 18:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 296 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 287 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:17
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 277 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:48
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 409 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 20:33
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 263 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 375 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 373 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 23:24
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 304 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 04:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 307 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 08:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 273 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:16
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 269 Thanos5150 10-Apr-17 15:25
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 261 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 323 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 275 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 279 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:54
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 277 Warwick 10-Apr-17 16:01
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 331 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:23
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 290 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 288 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:11
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 271 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:23
I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 419 Racho 08-Apr-17 16:54
Re: I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 418 Warwick 08-Apr-17 18:23
Oranges and apples... 353 Racho 09-Apr-17 00:39
Re: Oranges and apples... 308 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:59
Re: In plain sight 330 Thunderbird 10-Apr-17 19:53
It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 307 Racho 14-Apr-17 06:53
Re: It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 361 Thunderbird 15-Apr-17 01:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 305 Archae Solenhofen 09-Apr-17 16:47
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 291 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:52
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 292 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 305 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 285 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:09
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 336 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 351 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:59
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 291 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 280 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 265 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:46
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 337 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 18:45
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 302 Eddie Larry 10-Apr-17 18:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 296 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 18:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 311 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:18
unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 255 Racho 11-Apr-17 06:22
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 375 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 09:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 176 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:32
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 329 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:38
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 197 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:11
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 286 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 14:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 284 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 266 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 272 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 15:53
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 320 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:55
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 326 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 16:35
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 165 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 16:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 165 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:54
once the mistake... 260 Racho 12-Apr-17 00:03
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 357 Thunderbird 12-Apr-17 04:20
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 200 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 13:14
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 320 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 17:31
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 272 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:17
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 262 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:26
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 328 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 230 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 14:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 247 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 18:41
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 285 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 215 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 18:48
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 287 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:00
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 205 Warwick 11-Apr-17 19:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 282 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:59
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 206 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 271 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:34
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 295 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 193 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 264 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 190 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:24
science and technology...where minds come to meet 231 Racho 11-Apr-17 20:46
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 229 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 21:19
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 473 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 15:01
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 271 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:52
43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 278 Racho 12-Apr-17 20:20
Re: 43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 349 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 21:34
and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 380 Racho 12-Apr-17 22:54
Re: and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 296 Warwick 13-Apr-17 17:15
taking sides...I suppose so but 294 Racho 14-Apr-17 04:18
beating the dead horse... 381 Racho 20-Apr-17 06:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 443 Notinham 11-Apr-17 01:43


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