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Warwick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jon Ellison Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Warwick Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Jon Ellison Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > What classification and specification of
> > modern
> > > > copper most closely resembles that of the
> > > copper
> > > > available during the AE fourth dynasty?
> > > >
> > > > How would a modern copper of similar
> > > > classification and specification to that of
> > the
> > > AE
> > > > 4th dynasty impact upon the functionality
> of
> > > any
> > > > tooling and any tooling materials
> > experiments?
> > > > Are we suggesting that 4th AE copper
> tooling
> > > was
> > > > of a higher and more suitable specification
> > > than
> > > > today's copper alloys?
> > >
> > >
> > > Not commenting either way. I am merely
> > > recognising that any difference will call
> into
> > > question the resu
>
>
> > If we were to use a modern copper alloy of a
> > higher specification than all known AE
> examples.
> > How would we interpret the results?
>
>
> they would be inconclusive and disputed

Unless of course there was a zero result using high specification modern copper alloys who's specification in all relevant parameters exceeded that of 4th AE copper alloys.

>
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Or even at the very least in terms of
> granite
> > > > working, todays forged tool steel and
> > tungsten
> > > > carbide tipped tools?
> > >
> > > How we do it today is not the question.
> >
> > How we do it today is dictated by the worked
> > material itself, which is unchanged since AE
> > times, Red Granite.
> > Today it is absolutely necessary to use forged
> > tool steel and tungsten carbide.
>
>
> In your opinion

Also in the opinion of the global modern high tensile, tungsten carbide tooling industry and it's millions of customers, myself included.
Proven alternatives are most welcome.


>
>
> A necessary
> > process which supports a modern global industry
> in
> > tool production.
> > Has the red granite become harder and more
> > difficult to work over the last 4500 years or
> so?
>
>
> of course not, don't be silly.

Good, therefore we have eliminated one possible variable.

>
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > With regard to granite working. Did the 4th
> > AE
> > > > have the means to produce and have the use
> of
> > > > forged Steel tools?
> > >
> > > They had access to iron, they had access to
> the
> > > requirements for steeling iron. While I do
> not
> > > think they did I do not rule it out either
> >
> > Where did the 4th AE obtain their iron?
>
> where did I say they did?
>
> > How did they convert their iron into steel
> alloy?
>
> where did I say they did?

Agreed, you didn't say that they did convert iron into steel, you did say that they "had access to the requirements for steeling iron"
Just to clarify.
Does this mean that they had access to the materials and materials science necessary for the conversion of iron into steel alloy?


>
> > Are there any examples of 4th AE steel alloy?
>
> not to my knowedge , no. are tghere any examples
> of same from an earlier civilisation?

Thank you

I'm not aware of any examples of steel alloy from an earlier civilization.


>
>
> >
> > Iron isn't forged tool steel and tungsten
> carbide,
> > nowhere near.
>
> where did I say it was?

Clarifying a possible misunderstanding that iron and steel were some how comparable in terms of high impact tool functionality.
Iron, cast or wrought being unsuitable for the above application.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 3368 Racho 02-Apr-17 18:38
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 925 Fsbirdhouse 02-Apr-17 20:05
Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 833 Racho 04-Apr-17 14:02
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 819 Fsbirdhouse 04-Apr-17 14:51
If on purpose... 387 Racho 14-Apr-17 05:01
Re: If on purpose... 436 Origyptian 14-Apr-17 05:32
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 699 Origyptian 07-Apr-17 13:28
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 693 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 22:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 462 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 16:59
Re: B 4 : ) 656 Thunderbird 05-Apr-17 05:22
Re: B 4 : ) 640 Warwick 07-Apr-17 17:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 704 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 01:30
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 790 Warwick 07-Apr-17 18:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 886 Jon Ellison 08-Apr-17 10:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 579 Warwick 08-Apr-17 17:57
if I carried out a test... 660 Racho 09-Apr-17 02:15
Re: if I carried out a test... 605 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 08:44
I did check it out :) 516 Racho 25-Apr-17 05:59
Re: I did check it out :) 414 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 14:22
Don't even need to stop to think on this... 392 Racho 25-Apr-17 15:37
Re: Don't even need to stop to think on this... 463 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 17:20
I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 398 Racho 25-Apr-17 18:07
Re: I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 485 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 19:49
Would you agree... 446 Racho 25-Apr-17 20:29
Re: Would you agree... 491 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 21:07
Re: Would you agree... 470 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 22:54
...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 363 Racho 15-Oct-17 05:46
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 298 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 14:26
precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 373 Racho 15-Oct-17 16:49
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 338 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:20
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 348 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:35
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 352 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 03:27
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 366 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 07:58
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 330 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 09:19
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 621 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 11:03
an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 133 Racho 20-Dec-19 20:04
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 141 Martin Stower 20-Dec-19 23:47
? 121 Racho 21-Dec-19 01:25
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 134 Open mind 21-Dec-19 02:03
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 135 Thanos5150 21-Dec-19 04:19
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 141 Open mind 21-Dec-19 05:07
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 174 Thanos5150 21-Dec-19 16:25
Re: Would you agree... 670 Corpuscles 25-Apr-17 23:56
Re: if I carried out a test... 468 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:39
Re: if I carried out a test... 522 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 22:34
Re: if I carried out a test... 425 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 23:20
could not have been 477 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:34
Re: could not have been 479 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:18
Re: could not have been 520 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:29
Re: could not have been 499 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 17:59
Re: could not have been 467 Warwick 10-Apr-17 18:48
Re: could not have been 430 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:18
Re: could not have been 445 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:34
Re: could not have been 483 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:55
Re: could not have been 430 Warwick 11-Apr-17 17:29
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 457 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:13
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 563 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 481 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:56
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 470 Warwick 09-Apr-17 17:21
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 547 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:00
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 455 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 515 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:22
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 499 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 473 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:02
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 537 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:41
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 435 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 18:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 474 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 458 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:17
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 490 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:48
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 589 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 20:33
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 452 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 533 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 561 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 23:24
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 475 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 04:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 484 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 08:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 504 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:16
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 463 Thanos5150 10-Apr-17 15:25
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 435 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 493 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 466 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 451 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:54
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 438 Warwick 10-Apr-17 16:01
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 495 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:23
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 469 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 472 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:11
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 453 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:23
I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 610 Racho 08-Apr-17 16:54
Re: I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 604 Warwick 08-Apr-17 18:23
Oranges and apples... 525 Racho 09-Apr-17 00:39
Re: Oranges and apples... 500 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:59
Re: In plain sight 521 Thunderbird 10-Apr-17 19:53
It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 528 Racho 14-Apr-17 06:53
Re: It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 571 Thunderbird 15-Apr-17 01:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 482 Archae Solenhofen 09-Apr-17 16:47
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 478 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:52
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 464 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 480 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 460 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:09
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 563 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 556 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:59
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 467 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 485 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 477 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:46
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 524 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 18:45
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 488 Eddie Larry 10-Apr-17 18:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 484 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 18:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 481 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:18
unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 445 Racho 11-Apr-17 06:22
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 561 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 09:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 357 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:32
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 507 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:38
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 347 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:11
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 460 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 14:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 462 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 432 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 441 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 15:53
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 503 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:55
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 501 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 16:35
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 305 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 16:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 348 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:54
once the mistake... 428 Racho 12-Apr-17 00:03
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 540 Thunderbird 12-Apr-17 04:20
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 377 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 13:14
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 509 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 17:31
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 433 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:17
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 424 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:26
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 500 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 425 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 14:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 439 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 18:41
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 482 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 381 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 18:48
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 467 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:00
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 387 Warwick 11-Apr-17 19:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 464 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:59
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 377 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 461 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:34
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 489 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 373 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 453 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 353 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:24
science and technology...where minds come to meet 406 Racho 11-Apr-17 20:46
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 405 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 21:19
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 671 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 15:01
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 435 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:52
43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 454 Racho 12-Apr-17 20:20
Re: 43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 549 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 21:34
and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 577 Racho 12-Apr-17 22:54
Re: and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 456 Warwick 13-Apr-17 17:15
taking sides...I suppose so but 476 Racho 14-Apr-17 04:18
beating the dead horse... 700 Racho 20-Apr-17 06:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 633 Notinham 11-Apr-17 01:43


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