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Thanos5150 Wrote:
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> > I don't think you understand the consequences
> of
> > Vyse finding Menkaure's cartouche.
>
> I'm sure you don't mean that.

I'm getting the impression you haven't read the literature about the foundations of Egyptology. If true, no, you wouldn't understand the consequences.

> > He found a wood coffin, with Menkaure's
> cartouche
> > in G3. The inscription said it was the coffin
> of
> > King Menkaure (Mycerinus).
>
> The coffin in question would be this:

>
> The inscription reads:
>
Quote

O the Osiris King of Upper and Lower Egypt
> Menkaure, living forever, born of the sky,
> conceived by Nut, heir [of Geb] .....: Your mother
> Nut spreads herself over you in her name of
> 'Mystery of Heaven'. She has made you a god,
> [whose enemies do not exist], King of Upper and
> Lower Egypt Menkaure, living forever.'
Here.
>
> > He also found the same
> > cartouche painted on the ceiling of the
> chamber.
>
> According to Hawass:
"The name of Menkaure found written in red
> ochre on the ceiling of the burial chamber in one
> of the subsidiary pyramids."


According to Vyse, it was found in the 4th pyramid :
Quote
Operations carried on at the pyramids of Gizeh in 1837" pg.48
The walls also of both the chambers were perfectly plain; but, upon one of the slabs composing the roof, some hieroglyphs had been described with red paint, and, amongst them, the cartouche of Mycerinus.

> I think you may be mistaken. [See Martin's
> post]. I find no information the coffin itself was
> RCD, but rather only the skeleton found inside (?)
> which dated to less than 2,000yrs ago (other
> sources, the 2nd century AD). Verner.

How convenient that Verner left out the best part.
Read it from those who did the test
Quote
STROUHAL E, VYHNÁNEK L, GABALLAH MF, SAUNDERS SR, WOELFLI W, BONANI G, NĚMEČKOVÁ A, 2001: Identification of Royal Skeletal Remains from Egyptian Pyramids. Anthropologie (Brno) 39, 1: 15-23'.
A coffin with a mummy in the depository of the British Museum were attributed to King Mycerinus. According to our examination in 1990, the Egyptological dating of the coffin was confirmed by 14C date (range 12th-9th cent. BC), while the mummy was found to be a natural one and as late as from 7th-9th cent. AD.
Notice the use of the name "Mycerinus". Still... in 1990 they are linking it to Herodotus.

> No. What it means, since we are speaking in
> absolutes, is that the skeleton was intrusive as
> was the sarcophagus which is believed to date to
> the Saite period:
>
Quote

The coffin was not part of the original
> funerary equipment of Menkaure, but was made for a
> later restoration of his burial, as indicated by
> both stylistic and epigraphic evidence.
BM

If you read Vyse and where the coffin was found (under a pile of rubbish), the above statement becomes nothing more than pure guesswork. You're not going to the sources, you're believing the tales modern Egyptology has spun.

Why doesn't the British Museum give the RCD dates? I'm guessing it's too embarrassing of a mistake to acknowledge.

> > Quantity does not
> > verify a supposition.
>
> Its quantity in context that matters.

Then you have investigated the location where every Menkaure cartouche was found? You cannot make this statement without doing so. Unless you are just accepting, without question, what Egyptology says.
The context for the wood coffin was perfect; inside G3. But they were dead wrong. "Context" does not supersede science and investigation. The "context" has been fabricated by Egyptology over the last 500 years. Would you believe their "context" over RCD?

> I am confident the RCD is correct and that in fact
> both coffin and body are intrusive.

Read Raven's statement in Operations carried on at the pyramids of Gizeh in 1837

> But, no, neither have anything to do with why
> Menkaure is placed in the 4th Dynasty regardless.

Herodotus named the big 3 : Cheops > Chephren > Mycerinus. Manetho placed them in the 4th dyn. of a table he made up.
Why are they still called by those names today? Why are you constantly reading that such & such name is a Hellenized version of these names? Why did Wilkinson in 1837 and also Rossetti make a point of converting the Greek names to hieroglyphs? Because the greek names had already been accepted, and if the hieroglyphs were not an equivalent they had no other way of linking a name to a specific dynasty.

I thought everyone knew that the dynasties were Manetho's divisions of the king's reigns, and are still called today - Manetho's dysnasties. I thought everyone knew that that the 4th dynasty kings had been determined long before the hieroglyphs were deciphered.
Where did you think ground zero was? In the 20th cent?

> The 19th Dynasty Saqqara Tablet:
> Sneferu
> Khufu
> Djed-ef-re
> Kha-f-ra
> missing
> missing
> missing
> missing
> missing
> User-ka-f
> Sahura

Quote
Manetho's dynasties
1. Soris reigned 29 years.
2. Suphis reigned 63 years. He built the largest pyramid which He rodotus says was constructed by Cheops. He was arrogant towards the gods, and wrote the sacred book ; which is regarded by the Egyptians as a work of great importance.
3. Suphis reigned 66 years.
4. Mencheres 63 years.
5. Rhatceses 25 years.
6. Bicheris 22 years.
7. Sebercheres 7 years.

> Yes, Menkaure is missing, but here we have a list
> that shows the 4th and preceding 5th Dynasty kings
> (among others) in more or less the correct order.

Now how would anyone know what the "correct order" is? Who established the correct order? The correct order was taken from Manetho and Herodotus. No ifs and buts about it. I'm surprised you didn't know this.

> 19th Dynasty Abydos Kings list:
> Sneferu
> Khufu
> Djedefre
> Menkaura
> Shepseskaf
>
> All 4th Dynasty kings (among others) in the
> correct order.

According to whom? Who was it that determined the order?

> There are other lists that predate Manetho which
> show the correct order as well, meaning no, again
> as we have discussed this before, the placing of
> Menkaure in the 4th Dynasty group has nothing to
> do with Manetho which as we can see goes as far
> back in King Lists to at least the 19th Dynasty.
> Also, speaking of Manetho, he lived in the 3rd
> century BC yet Herodotus, nearly two centuries
> before, wrote of the pyramids of Giza belonging to
> Khufu, Khafre, and Menkaure respectively, yet for
> some reason you still think this all hinges on
> Manetho?

No, it doesn't ALL hinge on Manetho. But the dynasties do. The rest hinged on Herodotus. Before Vyse's discoveries, they had no proof of the 'correct order', they only had Herodotus and Manetho. Read the literature. Even wiki has this information. The 1800's were spent linking cartouches to the GREEK names. The 1900's cemented the transition from Greek to hieroglyph. The antiquarians pounced on the cartouche Vyse found. They NEEDED to find the big 3. But they had nothing, at that time, to back up the assumption that the cartouche was truly that of Mycerinus, and that he built G3. Nevertheless, the assumption stuck. And everything egyptology has done since, has been to uphold the Mycerinus assumption. Because without it, they're back to 1837, with no proof of Mycerinus. It started with one cartouche on a wood coffin that provided proof of what they had already decided. All the antiquarians in the 1800's wrote of how that cartouche was Mycerinus. In the 1900's they stopped mentioning Mycerinus, and spoke as if Menkaure were a modern translation.

> Dozens of full and partial statues were found
> buried around G3 bearing Menkaure's name. Dozens
> of seals have been found bearing Menkaure's name
> in the Workers Camp and Harbor in which other than
> a few of Khafre no other pharaoh's name is found.
> Near the entrance there is an inscription believed
> to have been written by Khaemweset in the 19th
> Dynasty which according to Rigano:
>
Quote

The inscription was badly eroded and has
> only been partially translated. It says Menkaure
> was buried on the twenty-third day of the fourth
> month of the winter season, about MArch, with all
> his possessions. The year was eitehr not present
> or eroded away. Four cartouches are barely
> visible, the names in three cannot be read, the
> fourth contains Menkaure's name.
Here.


And what does the RCD tell you about Menkaure? Were all the statues found buried around G3 of the Menkaure of the 12th-9th dyn? Do you place science above the quantity of cartouches found?

> Relief from the 6th Dynasty mastaba of Qar showing
> the cartouches of Menkaure, Khufu, and Khafre as
> well as his own king Pepi I:
>
>
> These are some of Qar's titles which include:
> ""Inspector of the wab priests of Ur-Khafre"
> (name of the pyramid of Khafre)
> "Director of the town of Pyramid Netjery-Menkaure"
> (name of the Pyramid of Menkaure)
> "Director of the Pyramid Town Akhet-Khufu" (name
> of the Pyramid of Khufu)
Here.

Actually I read all of Qar's inscriptions, his titles were many :

director of the dining pavilion Rensi
s3b official
lord of Busiris
lord of the heavens
he who is at the head of the king
King’s letter scribe
king’s letter scribe in the presence
king’s letter scribe in the presence, s3b official, overseer of the scribes of all the works,
overseer of the scribes
overseer of the scribes of all the works
overseer of the residence
overseer of all works
head of the king
staff of the people
true pillar of Kenmet
privy counsellor of all works
overseer of the pyramid city Akhet Khufu
overseer of the pyramid city Netjery Menkaure
elder lector priest
Qaar, his good nelder lector priest
ame, Meryre nefer
tenant farmer of Meryre men nefer
overseer of the portal, Nesu Hor

The hieroglyphs can be seen here. Somethings about them don't jive. There was a wooden sarcophagus found in Qar's tomb. What do you bet it hasn't been C14'd.

> The idea Menkaure belonging to the 4th Dynasty
> pharaoh group or that he was associated with G3,
> regardless of "whether he built it or not", is
> only based on Manetho simply has no merit and is
> clearly contradicted by literally all of the
> evidence.

Tell that to all of the Egyptologists who have stated "Mencheres" (Manetho) is the Greek version of Menkaure

He who knows all the answers has not been asked all the questions - Confucius

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Re: Imhotep 576 eyeofhorus33 28-Feb-17 21:47
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Re: Imhotep 645 eyeofhorus33 28-Feb-17 22:25
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Re: Imhotep 541 Martin Stower 01-Mar-17 03:23
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Re: Imhotep 703 Audrey 01-Mar-17 01:10
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Re: Imhotep 668 Audrey 01-Mar-17 04:43
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Re: Imhotep 606 cladking 01-Mar-17 15:30
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Re: Imhotep 577 Martin Stower 02-Mar-17 18:50
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Re: Imhotep 616 Martin Stower 02-Mar-17 21:38
Re: Imhotep 688 Origyptian 02-Mar-17 21:56
Re: Imhotep 529 Martin Stower 02-Mar-17 22:30
The weaselling continues. 516 Martin Stower 02-Mar-17 22:14
Re: The weaselling continues. 640 Origyptian 02-Mar-17 22:26
Re: The weaselling continues. 572 Martin Stower 02-Mar-17 22:51
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Utterance #373 667 cladking 02-Mar-17 01:52
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Great Post 621 cladking 01-Mar-17 19:45
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Re: Imhotep 572 Martin Stower 02-Mar-17 11:32
Re: Imhotep 532 Audrey 02-Mar-17 16:51
Re: Imhotep 566 cladking 02-Mar-17 17:04
Imhotep's Sandals. 578 cladking 02-Mar-17 17:09
Re: Imhotep 586 Martin Stower 02-Mar-17 18:58
Re: Imhotep 531 Thanos5150 02-Mar-17 18:10
Re: Imhotep 617 Origyptian 02-Mar-17 18:19
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Re: Imhotep 686 Thanos5150 03-Mar-17 17:48
Re: Imhotep 685 Origyptian 03-Mar-17 21:19
Re: Imhotep 545 eyeofhorus33 03-Mar-17 22:28
Re: Imhotep 580 Origyptian 03-Mar-17 22:48
Re: Imhotep 529 Martin Stower 04-Mar-17 00:18
Re: Imhotep 463 Origyptian 04-Mar-17 02:40
Re: Imhotep 561 Martin Stower 04-Mar-17 03:38
Re: Imhotep 743 Thanos5150 04-Mar-17 02:33
Re: Imhotep 738 Origyptian 04-Mar-17 04:34
Re: Imhotep 642 Martin Stower 05-Mar-17 01:55
Re: Imhotep 604 Thanos5150 05-Mar-17 02:28
Re: Imhotep 799 Audrey 04-Mar-17 07:43
Re: Imhotep 735 Thanos5150 04-Mar-17 22:59
Re: Imhotep 583 Martin Stower 05-Mar-17 01:05
Re: Imhotep 478 Thanos5150 05-Mar-17 02:00
Re: Imhotep 761 Audrey 05-Mar-17 04:56
Re: Imhotep 500 Origyptian 05-Mar-17 05:32
Re: Imhotep 721 Audrey 05-Mar-17 23:51
Re: Imhotep 726 Thanos5150 05-Mar-17 06:23
Re: Imhotep 568 Martin Stower 05-Mar-17 15:22
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Re: Imhotep 778 Audrey 06-Mar-17 02:50
Re: Imhotep 624 Thanos5150 06-Mar-17 05:38
Re: Imhotep 625 R Avry Wilson 06-Mar-17 07:06
Re: Imhotep 742 DUNE 06-Mar-17 14:49
Re: Imhotep 563 Jon Ellison 06-Mar-17 20:33
Re: Imhotep 517 DUNE 06-Mar-17 21:22
Re: Imhotep 670 Origyptian 06-Mar-17 21:38
Re: Imhotep 499 Jon Ellison 06-Mar-17 22:17
Re: Imhotep 475 Jon Ellison 06-Mar-17 22:12
Re: Imhotep 667 Thanos5150 06-Mar-17 23:32
Re: Imhotep 623 DUNE 06-Mar-17 23:56
Re: Imhotep 530 Jon Ellison 07-Mar-17 00:27
Re: Imhotep 520 Jon Ellison 07-Mar-17 01:07
Re: Imhotep 497 Jon Ellison 07-Mar-17 01:16
Re: Imhotep 975 Thanos5150 07-Mar-17 01:40
Re: Imhotep 672 Thanos5150 07-Mar-17 01:58
Re: Imhotep 638 DUNE 07-Mar-17 16:49
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Re: Imhotep 675 Corpuscles 07-Mar-17 02:23
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Re: Imhotep 626 Martin Stower 07-Mar-17 11:11
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Re: Imhotep 665 Martin Stower 07-Mar-17 15:45
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Re: Imhotep 667 Martin Stower 07-Mar-17 18:40
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Re: Imhotep 546 cladking 08-Mar-17 18:12
Re: Imhotep 638 Audrey 09-Mar-17 01:16
Interpretation vs Communication. 484 cladking 09-Mar-17 14:33
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 539 Origyptian 09-Mar-17 14:55
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 444 cladking 09-Mar-17 15:16
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 577 Origyptian 09-Mar-17 16:32
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 590 Jon Ellison 09-Mar-17 15:17
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 571 cladking 09-Mar-17 15:39
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 822 Jon Ellison 09-Mar-17 16:04
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 637 cladking 09-Mar-17 16:27
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 607 Jon Ellison 09-Mar-17 16:47
You Do the Math. 553 cladking 09-Mar-17 19:32
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 505 cladking 09-Mar-17 19:10
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 699 Jon Ellison 09-Mar-17 20:25
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 478 cladking 09-Mar-17 21:22
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 584 Jon Ellison 09-Mar-17 22:11
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 630 cladking 10-Mar-17 01:34
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 549 SandyJesse 11-Mar-17 02:15
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 659 SandyJesse 10-Mar-17 00:31
In order to build the great pyramids... 544 Racho 10-Mar-17 01:14
Re: Imhotep 603 Corpuscles 08-Mar-17 18:18
Re: Imhotep 609 Martin Stower 08-Mar-17 19:15
Re: Imhotep 574 Origyptian 08-Mar-17 22:53
Re: Imhotep 527 Martin Stower 09-Mar-17 00:33
Re: Imhotep 482 Origyptian 09-Mar-17 03:35
Re: Imhotep 525 Jon Ellison 09-Mar-17 14:53
Re: Imhotep 499 Audrey 10-Mar-17 00:51
Re: Imhotep 568 Jon Ellison 10-Mar-17 03:42
Re: Imhotep 648 Audrey 11-Mar-17 06:22
Re: Imhotep 711 Martin Stower 11-Mar-17 11:22
Re: Imhotep 600 Audrey 12-Mar-17 02:40
Re: Imhotep 504 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 03:25
Re: Imhotep 538 Audrey 12-Mar-17 04:55
Re: Imhotep 749 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 13:14
Re: Imhotep 497 Warwick 13-Mar-17 16:12
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Re: Imhotep 565 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 04:07
Re: Imhotep 510 cladking 12-Mar-17 14:03
Re: Imhotep 532 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 15:10
Who Knew? 486 cladking 12-Mar-17 19:26
Re: Who Knew? 483 Warwick 13-Mar-17 16:05
Re: Imhotep 622 Origyptian 12-Mar-17 16:33
Re: Imhotep 585 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 16:53
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Re: Imhotep 479 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 22:50
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Re: Funerary Cult 540 R Avry Wilson 16-Mar-17 02:08
Re: Funerary Cult 426 Warwick 15-Mar-17 18:48
Re: Funerary Cult 357 Origyptian 15-Mar-17 20:19
Re: Funerary Cult 508 Martin Stower 15-Mar-17 20:23
Re: Funerary Cult 286 Warwick 15-Mar-17 21:08
Re: Funerary Cult 468 Audrey 14-Mar-17 02:55
Re: Funerary Cult 635 Thanos5150 14-Mar-17 05:30
Re: Funerary Cult 416 Warwick 14-Mar-17 18:12
Re: Half cartouche. 374 Jon Ellison 14-Mar-17 12:14
Re: Half cartouche. 423 Martin Stower 14-Mar-17 12:43
Re: Half cartouche. 403 Jon Ellison 14-Mar-17 12:56
Re: Half cartouche. 385 Martin Stower 14-Mar-17 13:37
Re: Half cartouche. 419 Jon Ellison 14-Mar-17 13:42
Re: Half cartouche. 376 Martin Stower 14-Mar-17 15:00
Re: Half cartouche. 350 Jon Ellison 14-Mar-17 15:52
Re: Half cartouche. 494 Martin Stower 14-Mar-17 16:34
Re: Half cartouche. 639 Jon Ellison 14-Mar-17 17:19
Re: Half cartouche. 516 Martin Stower 14-Mar-17 20:07
Re: Half cartouche. 440 Jon Ellison 14-Mar-17 22:50
Re: Imhotep 521 Warwick 13-Mar-17 14:00
Re: Imhotep 505 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 14:10
Re: Imhotep 524 Merrell 13-Mar-17 15:22
Re: Imhotep 315 Warwick 13-Mar-17 15:30
Re: Imhotep 464 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 15:35
Re: Imhotep 426 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 15:51
Re: Imhotep 372 Warwick 13-Mar-17 15:58
Re: Imhotep 365 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 16:10
Re: Imhotep 412 Merrell 13-Mar-17 18:27
Re: Imhotep 443 Warwick 13-Mar-17 18:31
Re: Imhotep 438 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 18:40
Re: Imhotep 362 Warwick 13-Mar-17 18:48
Re: Imhotep 525 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 20:17
Re: Imhotep 326 Thanos5150 13-Mar-17 16:50
Re: Imhotep 413 Warwick 13-Mar-17 16:57
Re: Imhotep 439 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 18:10
Re: Imhotep 356 Warwick 13-Mar-17 19:28
Re: Imhotep 410 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 19:54
Re: Imhotep 334 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 15:48
Re: Imhotep 503 Thanos5150 13-Mar-17 16:28
Re: Imhotep 336 Warwick 13-Mar-17 16:40
Re: Imhotep 473 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 19:15
Re: Imhotep 306 Warwick 13-Mar-17 19:22
Re: Imhotep 383 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 20:30
Re: Imhotep 557 Thanos5150 13-Mar-17 21:06
Re: Imhotep 334 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 21:29
Re: Imhotep 409 Thanos5150 13-Mar-17 21:34
Re: Imhotep 379 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 22:01
Re: Imhotep 479 Thanos5150 13-Mar-17 22:41
Re: Imhotep 340 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 23:43
Re: Imhotep 433 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 12:42
Re: Imhotep 341 Thanos5150 13-Mar-17 16:42
Re: Imhotep 509 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 15:02
Re: Imhotep 460 Martin Stower 11-Mar-17 21:07
Re: Imhotep 514 Thanos5150 11-Mar-17 21:19
Re: Imhotep 611 Martin Stower 11-Mar-17 22:12
Re: Imhotep 527 Audrey 12-Mar-17 00:24
Re: Imhotep 476 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 00:55
Re: Imhotep 550 Thanos5150 12-Mar-17 01:41
Re: Imhotep 484 Audrey 12-Mar-17 02:30
Re: Imhotep 608 Thanos5150 12-Mar-17 07:02
Re: Imhotep 430 Origyptian 12-Mar-17 08:49
Re: Imhotep 382 Thanos5150 12-Mar-17 16:52
Re: Imhotep 398 Origyptian 12-Mar-17 21:10
Re: Imhotep 332 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 22:02
Re: Imhotep 381 Origyptian 12-Mar-17 22:16
Re: Imhotep 413 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 23:51
Re: Imhotep 439 Origyptian 14-Mar-17 04:04
Re: Imhotep 357 Audrey 12-Mar-17 19:54
Re: Imhotep 426 Thanos5150 12-Mar-17 21:07
Re: Imhotep 451 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 22:37
Re: Imhotep 363 Audrey 12-Mar-17 23:58
Re: Imhotep 472 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 00:20
Papyri Wadi el-Jarf 377 Corpuscles 12-Mar-17 19:58
Re: Papyri Wadi el-Jarf 481 cladking 12-Mar-17 20:06
Re: Papyri Wadi el-Jarf 423 Corpuscles 12-Mar-17 21:07
Re: Papyri Wadi el-Jarf 325 cladking 12-Mar-17 22:32
Re: Papyri Wadi el-Jarf 366 Warwick 13-Mar-17 15:38
...In a Million Years. 484 cladking 13-Mar-17 17:36
Re: ...In a Million Years. 313 Warwick 13-Mar-17 17:57
Re: ...In a Million Years. 543 cladking 13-Mar-17 18:33