> What are you saying, Thanos? We use hard steel
> today. There were no hard steel picks and axes
> during the 3rd millennium BC.
> How can you possibly
> say they used the same tools as us today?
The tools are the same, the materials are different. What do you not understand about this? And the argument made by many, including some egyptologists, is that the AE must have had metal harder than copper, like bronze or iron. Once again, how many times must his be said?
> This has
> nothing to do with what you keep referring to as
If not the "LC" then who is it you are reffering to?
> It's a basic recognition of the limited
> primitive technology available 4500 years ago. If
> you continue to insist there was no different in
> the capability of those tools and the tools we use
> today, we need to agree to disagree about that.
Again, you are confusing the tool with the material it is made of. Discussed many times before.
> No, it's the minute I saw you use the word
> "chisels" in the context of the Old Kingdom.
Oh, so that's when your brain shuts off and you start clacking away. Got it.
> If there was such a thing as the LC and they had
> the same tools as we do today, then how does that
> translate to aliens and "Vibtron 2000" technology?
What do you mean "if"? You have talked about nothing else since the day you got here. According to you all of AE stone working civilization belonged to this LC and the AE were so dumb they didn't even know the pyrmaids were man-made until the Greeks came along to educate them. Tens of thousands if not millions of years old are the LC which according to you they may not even be human.
So if the LC as you envision it did not exist, which there is zero evidence they did, what then? How can we explain what is seen within the historical period post 10,000BC?
And that's Vibatron 2000, not "Vibtron". Many people think aliens built the pyramids and had levitation technology and the like-why do you think your nonsense is any more credible if not less? How is the belief in a non-human LC tens of thousands of years if not millions of years old that is otherwise completely missing any better than aliens or lasers? Origyptian: "Neither is traditionalists idea blah blah blah". How droll.
> If you weren't talking about the Old Kingdom but
> rather some era farther in the past, then simply
> point that out without going medieval.
Why does it have to be farther in the past? And who is going "medieval" on who here? I didn't ask for your crap.
> You're exaggerating what some of us are saying by
> resorting to such sci-fi references because you
> cannot accept the possibility that those things
> may have been built far earlier than you believe
> they were built.
100% not true. The opposite actually as it is you who are trying to legitimize your own fantastical ideas by trying to separate them from the other when there is no difference. It's one thing to say the pyramids are older than accepted, the idea they were built before 10,000BC in particular is nothing new, but you have made it absurd-a parody of itself. You delude yourself by trying to claim a credibility for your beliefs which they do not deserve. I would honestly accept aliens before the LC as you envision it as on balance it makes much more sense and at least there is something to it in ancient literature which is more than can be said than your LC.
> No one here has said that the
> builders were any more advanced than we are today.
Your twisting my words as usual. I never said "as advanced as we are today" I said they used the same "tools as we use today" specifically relating to quarrying which are nothing more than hammers, chisels, wedges, cranes and the like.
> No one said they used a completely different set
> of tools than we have today.
When you deny the use of such tools as hammers, chisels, pickaxes, lathes, et al this is exactly what you are saying.
> You don't have any
> tolerance for shades of gray.
Your hypocrisy is stunning. What a joke. It is you fresh thinkers that have no tolerance for any "shades of grey" as the lot of you will accept nothing less than some antediluvian LC being responsibility for everything and attack anyone who suggests otherwise. This coming from the person who claims the obelisks of Rome were already there before the Romans. The person who claims the AE didn't even understand the pyramids were man-made.
> It's either your way
> or the highway.
Total BS, but of course the exact same thing is true of you. Unless it involves a possibly non-human LC tens of thousands if not millions of years old you want nothing to do with it.
> Such a hostile manichaean
> mentality is impossible to debate with.
So is it impossible to debate with a self-absorbed intellectual fraud who posts dozens of times a day saying the same things over and over again who could care less what anyone else says if it doesn't agree with their beliefs. You claim I am hostile yet ignore the fact you offer nothing but the same passive aggressive deflection and lack of intellectual integrity at every turn just to "win an argument". Sounds pretty "hostile" to me.
> You seem to deny the fact that non-durable
> artifacts get absorbed/resorbed far earlier than
Speaking of which, I have shown numerous examples of the exact opposite dating back 50,000yrs.
> Instead, you dwell on influence from other
> contemporary cultures without being able to
> identify any record in those cultures of
> participating in that construction along the Nile,
I know. I'm such an a-hole for actually exhaustively researching history and traveling to these sites all over the world for the last 25yrs to understand what it is we actually know so I can have a chance of actually finding the answers instead of just passing judgement on pictures people post to me from the internet and make up whatever to warm my tummy to confirm my bias based on nothing more than my own ignorance. Got me there, doc. Your right, we should just ignore all the evidence and all the other cultures and history of our species and stare at the Great Pyramid all day and the amazing granite and just make up whatever. Origyptian's vaunted "higher standards of proof" finally revealed. Nothing.
> and yet you deny other possibilities, such as an
> earlier provenance, with hostility and insult.
Always the lies with you. As had been said numerous times the "hostility and insults" have nothing to do with "other possibilities" but the character of the people presenting them. Simple as that so once again you can save the victim routine.
> You can't point to a single eyewitness report
> about such massive construction projects from any
> architect, designer, builder, worker, mason,
> priest, vizier, royalty, grafitti, etc., etc.,
> that offers any firsthand account or artifact in
> any tomb or elsewhere from the 3rd millennium BC
> even though surely over a million people saw those
> things being constructed during that time period.
You sure, not a "single eyewitness account"?
4th Dynasty tomb of Debhen:
As for this tomb, it was the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, Menkure, [living forever], who caused that it be [made], when [his majesty] was [upon] the road beside the pyramid, HirC (HY), in order to inspect the work on the pyramid: "Divine-is-Menkure." --- [there camel] the [naval] commander and the two high priests of Memphis, and
the workmen, standing upon it, to inspect the work on [the pyramid, "Divine-is-Menkure"]. - 50 men were assigned to do the work on it every day, besides [exacting of them, that which the r-1 desired. His majesty commanded that [no man
should be taken] for any forced labor, except to do the work on it, to his satisfaction.
From the 6th Dynasty:
His majesty sent me Ibheta (Ybh' .t), to bring the sarcophagus (named) : "Chest-of-the-Living," together with its lid and the costly, splendid pyramidion for the pyramid (called) : "Mernere-Shines-andis-Beautiful," of the queen. His majesty sent me to Elephantine [Aswan] to bring a false door of granite, together with its offering-tablet, doors and settings of granite; to bring doorways and offering-tablets of granite, belonging to the upper chamber of the pyramid (called): "Mernere-Shines-andis-Beautiful," of the queen. Then I sailed down-stream to the pyramid (called): "Mernere-Shines-and-is-Beautiful," with 6 cargo-boats, 3 [tow]-boats and 3 [-]-boats to only one warship....
His majesty sent [me]' to dig five canals in the South and to make 3 cargo-boats and 4 [tow]-boats of acacia wood of Wawat Then the negro chiefs of Irthet (Yrrit), Wawat, Yam (Y'm) and Mazoi (Md')a drew timber therefor, and I did the whole in only one year. They were launched and laden with very large granite blocks for the pyramid (called) : "Mernere-Shines-and-is-Beautiful."
Fakes. Could have been put there whenever. They just made it up. Just a fairy tale. The hieroglyph for pyramid doesn't actually mean "pyramid". They are not talking about actually building the pyramids but just repairing them. Which is weird because according to you they were so primitive they didn't even understand they were man-made.
According to your friend Cladking of whom you are just so fascinated with his interpretation of the PT and can't rule out his inane geyser theory:
There's "nothing" inside the pyramids but the titles of the builders litter the cemetery around the pyramid.
The following is my interpretation of the actual jobs with the actual titles.
Well diggers; those who bring forth the gods with long claws and sharp teeth (attested in PT only)
Upper Eye Operator; blessed dead (attested in PT only)
Funicular Operator; ferryman (weir operator)(attested widely in the literature)
Loader Operator; Overseer of the Boats of Neith (in workers cemetery)
Architect; Anubis priest very well attested
Quarry Workers; sculptors (in workers cemetery)(Overseer of Sculptors)
Djed Operator; blessed dead (well attested)
Overseers; sons of horus: (Overseer of the Side of the Pyramid) (in noble cemetery)
Head of All Loading; Weigher/ Reckoner (in nobles cemetery)
Sail Operator; Leader of Boat (in nobles cemetery)
Tool Maker; Overseer of Metal Shop (in nobles cemetery)
Platform Builders; Overseer of Carpenters (in nobles cemetery)
Head of water supply; Overseer of Canals (in nobles cemetery)
Finishers; Overseer of necklace stringers (in nobles cemetery)
Masons; In Great Saw Palace on east side (Overseer of Masons)
Writers of Book of Thot; (they) who make their gods in words that can not be erased (later eras)
natural processes which built the "instrument of ascension"; the crew of the boat of re (earthly ennead)
Shaduf Operators; w3g-priests (in literature) (probably in grand gallery)
Runners; runners (in literature)
Signalmen; signalmen (in literature)
There would have been surprisingly few laborers and other positions on the pyramid and many of these were performed by women and children. Most of the main jobs are accounted for. To my knowledge (which should be "complete" on this issue) there are no other known pyramid jobs. There are, of course, some known jobs that could have been associated with building pyramids but they don't fit this pattern. This is the best fit pattern so far as I know and Egyptology can identify only one single pyramid worker in all of Egypt. This worker was the "overseer of the Side of the Pyramid". Obviously one man did not build several great pyramids alone. Therefore Egyptologists are necessarily overlooking ALL of the actual pyramid workers. These are they!
Uh, oh. Someone is saying there is evidence of the pyramid builders. Better go attack them before people start thinking something other than you do.
But before your fingers start clacking, understand that many, including myself, accept there are issues with the timeline and that the pyramids were not started and completed in the reign of one pharaoh nor were they made to inter a body. You talk of "tolerance" yet refuse to accept any other possibility than what you believe and attack with your never ending well of verbosity and rhetoric to overwhelm the boards with your beliefs and your beliefs only.
> I just don't understand why this simple
> disagreement fires off such hostility from some of
> you here.
You don't understand because you refuse to be honest with yourself and others here and accept the fact this "hostility" has nothing to do with your ideas but you as a person. I can only conclude you do this on purpose because you keep saying the same thing over and over again playing the victim despite the fact it has been explained to you countless times over this is simply not true.
> And please show me where I've attacked you. I've
> not attacked you, or insulted you, or called you
> names, or made fun of you. I have been totally
> civil and respectful. And yet you continue the
> hostilities post after post after post.
Every time you misrepresent what I and others say, don't read what we say, lie, don't take responsibility for yourself, overwhelm every subject and post that does not agree with you with the same canned repetitive rhetoric, self-serving confirmation bias, your hypocrisy, your lack of self-responsibility, your refusal to accept any other conclusion than your own despite the fact you more often than not don't have a clue what you are talking about, your intellectual laziness yet still have the gall to hold your opinions above those who have actually done the work-on and on and on post after post after post. This is when you attack me (us). When you insult us. When you call us names by separating us as "traditionalists" and the like. You are quite frankly the most disrespectful person on these boards.
> And you expect me to put time into contemplating
> every word you post here?
More self-serving lies. More insults. You have been behaving exactly the same way to everyone you do not agree with since the day you got here long before you were revealed as the self-absorbed intellectual fraud you are so don't blame it on me. I could care less if you agree with a word I say, which no doubt you never will if it does not support your beliefs no matter how true it is, nor do I care if you read anything I write- if you do not respond to me. Your loss, but given that you do respond to me, often from posts I have made to other people, yeah, I think you should at least have not only the respect for others to read what they write and understand their point of view, but the self respect of knowing that you have made the effort to be respectful of others and an honest participant in these discussions.
> Think again, my friend.
I have no illusions you would ever change. You have it all figured out and know all the answers before the questions are even asked anyways so its understandable you have little interest in other people's point of view or, say, learning. Good luck with that.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 15-Jan-17 22:23 by Thanos5150.