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Proving the location of Atlantis.
(How to prove the location? What will people accept as proof? What points need better answers?)

Our discovery/thesis/theory is that Atlantis the large island is (South) America, and Atlantis the city is Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku (and the "sinking" was either crust displacement or continental shift or else only the city).

From all the stark matches & evidences that i have seen/found (and have tried to show in our paper/article and forum posts) I myself am absolutely positively certain that the location is right.

However most other people seemingly still can't see it (and i find myself frustratingly always having to rewrite all the evidences again and again). This is one last re-attempt to hammer this out with some people, and show/prove that Atlantis is found.

Now a problem here is that there are so many details of the Atlantis Account that people raise questions about that all have to be answered (eg larger than Libya & Asia, "island", muddy/navigable sea, 10 kings, bulls, Atlantic/pelagos, size of palace/temple, hill dwelling of Clito, elephants, blue robes, springs, 2 crops a year, "9000 yrs" date, distance, opposite continent, large Plain, concentric circles city, the "sinking", Gadeira/Gades, Pillars of Hercules, oreichalc, etc etc). It takes massive time and effort to write answers for each and every one of so many details, and in forums it is difficult to address/answer more than one or two details/posts/people at a time. (There are also so many rival location theories that people expect to be disproven (in addition to proving our own).)

So first let us ask you all for a list of important details of Atlantis from the Atlantis Account that we must show only-best matches for in order to show/convince/satisfy you that Atlantis does really only-best match our location, and then ask you people to say which one(s) to start with first. (I only request though that we leave the supposedly weaker/weakest details until later.* I also request that the common first dispute question of "textual criticism"/"Platonic utopia"/"myth"/"composite" is also left until after the major details of the Account have been answered.)

For the moment while i wait until people have given a list and given the first most-important/-necessary detail(s in order of time/importance) for us to answer, i will post this first example one on the detail of the Size of Atlantis (including the "larger than Asia & Libya").


1. The size of the whole large island of Atlantis.

The question of what the size of the "island" of Atlantis was according to the details given in the Atlantis Account (given by Plato) is important in narrowing down what locations (theories) do or don't only-best match Atlantis. If Atlantis was a very large island/landmass/continent then it significantly narrows the possible locations ("not looking for a needle in a hay stack" as Hancock said in 'Sign & Seal'). If Atlantis was only a small island/city then it makes Atlantis so much more "impossible" to find as it is difficult to find such a small site in such a large world. Some of the details relating to the size of Atlantis in the Account are disputed whether they imply large or small. (Other details of the Account like direction and distance also narrow down where Atlantis can or can't be, though they are also disputed.)
We assert that all the details given in the (English) Atlantis Account imply a large island/land not just a small island/city. Here is a list of some of these details given in the Account (plus some from other accounts) :

- Atlantis was "larger than Libya/Africa & Asia together".
"larger than Libya &/or Asia together/combined" Tim 25a.
"extent greater than Libya and/or Asia" Crit 109a.

- Atlantis had a Large rectangular Plain (so many stades wide & long). (Few places in the world have such a large plain. The plain is shown in the Inca picture from the Coricancha.)
"surrounding the city was a level plain, itself surrounded by mountains which descended towards the sea ... 3000 stadia ... from the sea through the center of the island 2000 stadia...." Crit 118b.
"... and on plains" Crit 115a.
["an extensive net of canals such as was never seen in Europe".]

- Atlantis had a large population (as assertained from the military numbers given).
"And of the inhabitants of the mountains and of the rest of the country there was also a vast multitude" Crit 119b.
"1200 ships/boats".

- Atlantis had many species of animals including elephants.
"every kind of animal tame and wild" Crit 115a.
"great number of elephants" Crit 115a.
"horses and cattle" Crit 117c.
"... supplying food enough for every animal, wild or tame...." Crit 118c.

- Atlantis is said to have been self-sufficient.
"many things where brought to them from foreign countries, & the island itself provided much" Crit 114e.
"all these that sacred island" Crit 115c.

- Atlantis had 10 kings regions. (Also, perhaps compare 10 bows/arcs of the world in Egyptian, and 12 parts of Amenti/Urani/Aaru? 10 countries Mu??)
"a part/particular-district of it/the-island" Crit 113d.
"dividing the island of Atlantis into 10 portions/parts" Crit 114a.
"his mothers home-district/dwelling & the surrounding allotment/land, which was the largest" Crit 114b.
"gave them ... a large territory" Crit 114b.
"the extremity/furthest-part of the island towards the pillars of Hercules, as-far-as/and-facing the country which is still/now called the region of Gades in that part of the world" Crit 114c.
"all the 10 portions/provinces" Crit 116d.
"other 9 governments.... Each of the 10 kings, in his own division" Crit 119c & Crit 119d.

- The Atlantis Account says "the whole island", etc.
"the whole island and the surrounding ocean" Crit 114b.
"on/in this/the island was a great & wonderful empire ... over the whole island" Tim 25b.
"in/at the center of the (whole) island" Crit 113d.
"the rest of the country. The whole country was described as being very lofty and precipitous on the side of the sea" Crit 118a-118b.
"... the whole region of the island...." Crit 118b.

- Atlantis had (great/large) river(s).
"... rivers, and ...." Crit 115a.
[a "great river" ~ Crit 118a (Spanuth)?]
"having in them also ... rivers...." Crit 118c.

- Atlantis had many mines/minerals in the island (Flem-Ath).
"a-number-of/many parts/localities of/in the island" Crit 115a.

- Atlantis had high(est) mountains. (Few places in the world have such high mountains.)
"The whole country was described as being very lofty and precipitous on the side of the sea" Crit 118a-118b.
"the surrounding mountains celebrated for their number and size ... exceed all that are now to be seen anywhere; having in them also many wealthy inhabited villages, & rivers & lakes, & meadows...." Crit 118c.
"And of the inhabitants of the mountains...." Crit 119b
[Atlas held up the heavens &/or the earth. Atlas & stars implies high up close to heaven.]

- Atlantis "sinking" left a Lot of "mud" "shoal"?
("quantity of mud" Tim 25e (& Critias 109a).)

- A small island could not project or control such a large empire/invasion/war.
"on/in this/the island was a great & wonderful empire ... over the whole island" Tim 25b.

- Atlantis plain & city was in mid-point of longest side of the island. This makes more sense with a large island than a small one.
"in/at the center of the (whole) island" Crit 113d.
"in the middle of the island" Crit 119d.

- Atlantis was an "island". "Island/isle" in Egyptian/Biblical/Classical can mean either : islet, island/isle, small island, large island, a separate landmass, surrounded by water, continent, peninsula, peloponessus, coastlands, planet, the old world, the world/Earth/Pangaea.

- Atlantis was (called) a "land".
"in that land" Critias 115b?
"a remote land in the middle of the ocean" - Timagenes.

- An inland sea/pelagos is possibly implied in the Account?

- Atlanis island had number of cities/towns/villages.
"...having in them also many wealthy inhabited villages...." Crit 118c.
"if any one city" Crit 120d.

- Classical source(s) imply that either the whole Earth was divided up between the 3 gods Zeus/Jupiter/Ammon, Poseidon/Neptune/Atlantis, & Hades/Pluto; or that there were 3 large islands in western ocean of Z/J/A, P/N/A, & H/P.
"gods ... distributed the whole earth .... Poseidon receiving for his lot Atlantis" (Critias 109b-109d, &) Critias 113c-113d.
"... seven islands ... and three others of great size ... a thousand stadia in area...." Proclus.

- other Atlantis sources also imply large island, eg:
"island equal in size to Libya or Asia" Tertullian.
"not far to the west of Europe ... memory of a larger island" Proclus.
"... seven islands ... and three others of great size ... a thousand stadia in area...." Proclus.
"a large island was swallowed up" Marcellinus.
Kirchir's spurious map shows Atlantis as a large island-continent similar to North/South America.
Etc.

Now regarding the disputes & contentions about the "Larger than Libya & Asia":
Some people claim it can be "between" not "larger than", but the great majority of sources of last 2500 yrs agree with "larger than".
Some people claim it is only Asia Minor and only North Africa, but the ancients had 3 divisions of the Old World.
This is reckoned to be about the size of USA (Flem-Ath), Antarctica (Flem-Ath), Europe (Herodotus), Australia (similar size to USA)? the face of the moon (similar size to Australia)?
Yes Herodotus says in one place that Europe is as large as Asia & Libya; but, all the details evidences of the Account & other sources more strongly imply that Atlantis is not Europe. Herodotus said abit different in another place; Europe didn't "sink"/disappear; Account implies Atlantis was a separate "island" to "Europe & Libya"/"Europe & Asia"/"Asia & Libya"; "an extensive net of canals such as was never seen in Europe"; Atlas is in Africa not in Spain/Europe; Theopompus says larger than Europe & Asia & Libya; etc.
People often say Europe is a peninsula of (Eur(o)(-))Asia. The Americas is the 2nd largest landmass after the Old World (Europe-Asia-Africa).
Some people claim it was only the sphere of influence or empire beyond the island that was "larger than" etc, but all the other details of the Account agree/imply that Atlantis was a large island.
One source says "Libya or Asia" rather than "Libya & Asia" (compare similar "and"/"or" in some other sources cases like in Judges in Bible), but the "or" is rarer, and it is is still large.


There is no such large enough sunken/submerged landmass found in/on the seafloor of the modern Atlantic Ocean (as geologists say according to Hancock in 'Sign & Seal') nor in the other Oceans, therefore Atlantis must be one of the 7 continents.

(* The Atlantis Account seems to imply both a large island of Atlantis [which = (South) America)], and a small royal island capital city of Atlantis [which = Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku] (cf Spanuth)?)

Now if there is still any dispute or doubt about the details about the size of Atlantis in the Account then please say what size of Atlantis points given above that there are still criticisms/contentions about that we need to better answer. (Though remember that the size can not be considered alone without the othe details of the Account like direction, distance, etc.) If there are no remaining disputes about the size of Atlantis in the Account then let us now move on to another detail of the Account (what next detail of list of identification details of Atlantis in the Account is next most important?)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
proving the location of Atlantis 2299 Rofhessa 16-Aug-16 21:23
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 495 carolb 16-Aug-16 21:36
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 536 Rofhessa 16-Aug-16 22:06
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 450 carolb 16-Aug-16 23:45
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 428 Rofhessa 17-Aug-16 23:15
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 528 carolb 18-Aug-16 01:10
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 406 Rofhessa 18-Aug-16 14:42
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 355 carolb 18-Aug-16 15:18
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 381 Notinham 18-Aug-16 15:52
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 399 Rofhessa 18-Aug-16 16:44
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 463 Rofhessa 18-Aug-16 16:15
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 419 carolb 18-Aug-16 16:20
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 357 Rofhessa 18-Aug-16 16:33
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 334 OCaptain 19-Aug-16 12:06
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 389 Rofhessa 20-Aug-16 01:08
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 365 Notinham 18-Aug-16 16:25
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 427 Rofhessa 20-Aug-16 01:12
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 386 Notinham 20-Aug-16 01:21
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 404 Rofhessa 19-Aug-16 03:42
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 448 M. J. Thomas 24-Aug-16 09:30
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 411 Merrell 28-Aug-16 22:26
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 239 Lost_In_Place 18-Jun-17 21:26
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 168 Merrell 18-Jun-17 21:48
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 278 David L 14-Jun-17 21:50
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 237 Rofhessa 15-Jun-17 17:43
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 452 Thunderbird 16-Aug-16 22:32
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 404 Rofhessa 16-Aug-16 22:48
Re: The story.....Tell 446 Thunderbird 17-Aug-16 05:04
Re: The story.....Tell 351 Rofhessa 17-Aug-16 23:38
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 498 eyeofhorus33 16-Aug-16 22:48
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 348 Rofhessa 16-Aug-16 23:12
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 401 @tlantis 17-Aug-16 05:38
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 358 Rofhessa 17-Aug-16 22:41
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 409 @tlantis 19-Aug-16 07:24
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 353 Rofhessa 20-Aug-16 01:19
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 492 Rofhessa 21-Aug-16 15:15
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 462 Rofhessa 17-Aug-16 22:30
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 394 Rofhessa 18-Aug-16 11:28
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 368 Rofhessa 20-Aug-16 00:23
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 451 M. J. Thomas 22-Aug-16 09:56
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 389 Rofhessa 23-Aug-16 23:11
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 468 M. J. Thomas 24-Aug-16 00:40
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 306 Rofhessa 24-Aug-16 07:05
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 372 Heron 27-Aug-16 23:54
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 359 Aine 28-Aug-16 02:10
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 368 Heron 28-Aug-16 21:09
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 409 Thanos5150 29-Aug-16 03:10
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 372 Aine 29-Aug-16 15:03
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 459 Heron 30-Aug-16 19:32
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 371 Thanos5150 28-Aug-16 16:16
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 399 Heron 28-Aug-16 21:23
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 220 Rofhessa 12-Jun-17 09:09
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 401 Buildreps 28-Aug-16 17:45
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 378 Jon Ellison 28-Aug-16 19:27
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 342 Buildreps 28-Aug-16 19:48
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 427 richardahowes 30-Aug-16 16:14
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 311 Rofhessa 12-Jun-17 08:47
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 318 Rofhessa 12-Jun-17 15:01
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 301 Notinham 12-Jun-17 15:50
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 245 Rofhessa 12-Jun-17 20:22
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 285 Notinham 12-Jun-17 21:12
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 281 Andre T 12-Jun-17 17:45
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 291 Rofhessa 12-Jun-17 21:10
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 251 Andre T 13-Jun-17 09:59
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 296 Rofhessa 13-Jun-17 15:32
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 251 M. J. Thomas 13-Jun-17 21:09
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 276 Rofhessa 15-Jun-17 18:07
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 267 M. J. Thomas 15-Jun-17 22:39
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 388 Lost_In_Place 16-Jun-17 05:06
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 266 Rofhessa 19-Jun-17 08:48
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 197 Rickard 17-Jun-17 20:13
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 285 Lost_In_Place 18-Jun-17 06:24
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 95 Rickard 18-Jun-17 10:09
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 168 Lost_In_Place 18-Jun-17 11:28
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 216 Merrell 18-Jun-17 12:44
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 155 Rickard 18-Jun-17 15:28
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 163 carolb 18-Jun-17 15:46
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 250 Merrell 18-Jun-17 16:07
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 153 Rickard 18-Jun-17 15:24
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 170 carolb 18-Jun-17 15:45
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 239 Rickard 18-Jun-17 17:52
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 174 carolb 18-Jun-17 20:01
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 198 Rickard 19-Jun-17 19:42
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 210 Merrell 19-Jun-17 20:25
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 206 Rickard 20-Jun-17 07:49
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 119 Merrell 20-Jun-17 10:36
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 346 Rickard 20-Jun-17 19:08
Thera - A Model for Atlantis 178 Dr. Troglodyte 19-Jun-17 22:27
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 239 Lost_In_Place 18-Jun-17 21:16
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 145 carolb 18-Jun-17 22:22
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 278 Lost_In_Place 19-Jun-17 00:28
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 204 Merrell 19-Jun-17 07:31
Mod Note > Duplicate Posts 150 Dr. Troglodyte 19-Jun-17 12:52
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 140 carolb 19-Jun-17 13:07
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 256 Rofhessa 19-Jun-17 14:46
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 245 carolb 19-Jun-17 15:18
Re: proving the location of Atlantis 253 Rofhessa 19-Jun-17 08:36


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